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300tdi not turning over, alarm? immobiliser?

B

bonus99

Shifting Up
First of all, I had some issues, here is the back story https://www.lrukforums.com/threads/...ounding-issue-wont-crank.258162/#post-1682682

I now have the electrics back together but the engine does not turn over.
Checked all connections and fuses and the battery is fully charged at 14.1V
The fob puts the alarm on and off and the flashing light on the dash seems to correspond correctly and the indicators flash. I set the alarm, open the door, nothing happens, i put the key in and turn it and then the horn sounds, pressing the fob stops the alarm. That tells me the alarm is functioning to a degree and the fob works OK. However, the alarm does not sound on any doors or bonnet opening and neither with the internal sensor, only when I turn the ignition on.

When I turn the ignition on, the oil, battery and gloplug lights come on, there are some relay clicks after a few seconds and then i turn the key and nothing.

I could have damaged some of the alarm system when I had the electrical issues.

Here are my questions...
How can I read the alarm codes, it does not seem to work with ODBII?
Can I pack up all the bits and send them somewhere for testing? ECU, spider, fob etc.
Can I rip out the factory and replace with a better after market alarm and if so, any suggestions?
Any tests that I can make or suggestions for trying to investigate further and resolve?

I am happy to pull things apart but would rather start with some suggestions on the likely bits rather than fly blind.

I have had the ECU cover off and that does not look burnt out and I have also had the relay apart C964? and that looks OK, the beige one under the dash.

I am happy to throw good money on a new alarm/immobiliser and fitting etc if that is the best way forward, I just want to drive it!

Thanks for taking the trouble to read to the end...
Cheers
Bruce
 
Firstly, Im not 100% familiar with the 300Tdi (the other half has one that I work on but the spider has been removed by a PO) so the first question is; does the spider inhibit the starter? - I know it inhibits the fuel but unsure what else it does...

If it does inhibit the starter, then you could try by-passing the spider? I understand that its just a few wires to connect to do that, and if you didnt want to fek about with the wiring yourself, you can get a bypass plug to do the job... seems much easier thing to try before ripping the alarm system out for testing...

My other thought is that I would be inclined to eliminate the starter as an issue before looking further... try putting some power directly on the solenoid+starter to see if it spins OK.
It would be a massive pita to have the alarm tested etc etc and then find out the starter or solenoid was faulty...
 
Test book T4 to read coded not sure which other after market devices will.
The starter motor crank is enabled / disabled via two circuits in the alarm ECU and spider ECU.
If any of the fuses have blown multiple circuits will have failed.

If you are not getting any warning on the dash indicating the alarm (including the passive) is still armed then
check the yellow starter relay (lower right below the passenger fuse box) which has 4 wires

30--Brown Red (+12v feed to spider ECU when relay is energised)
85--White Red (+12v when ignition switch is in the crank position to the relay coil)
86--Black or Black Orange (ground supplied from the alarm ECU to the relay coil)
87--Brown (permanent +12v from engine bay fuse box)

Check the relay operation out of the circuit with a meter or change it for a known good relay.
Put your hand on the relay and see if it clicks when you try the starter and it fails to crank.

If it fails to click/energise the fault is in the alarm ecu side not spider circuit.
Add an additional ground to the black wire 86 of the relay coil this will eliminate the alarm ECU control.
Now the relay will always energise when you turn the key to the crank position if no other problem exists.
Check if the relay energises reliably on turning the key to the crank position.
If it does you have a choice make the additional earth permanent and call it fixed or check the black wire to the alarm ECU get the alarm ECU operation checked and fix the problem properly.
Adding this ground wire does not effect the spider / passive immobilisation side of the circuit.

If it fails to crank suspect the ignition switch, wire or bad joint check for +12v at the relay on the White Red wire with the key in the crank position.
Check if the ignition switch works reliably I'd pull the white red wire off the back of the ignition switch and put a volt meter on it or plug in a 12v lamp (using a suitable ground)
If the ignition switch works correctly but no feed at the relay run a jump wire to replace the White Red wire.

If the starter relay is good, clicks and energises with +12v on terminal 30 Brown Red wire but fails to crank then the fault is in the spider side of the circuit , spider, wiring or starter.

At the back of the engine in the engine bay is a large white round single wire connection block (probably 15mm round and 50mm long) with the Brown Red wire from the relay on one side and a Black wire on the other split the connection and check for +12v on the Brown Red side of the connector when the ignition switch is in the crank position.
If not +12v with ignition in crank at the connector but at the relay replace this wire.
If you have +12v on crank run a wire direct from here to the terminal of the starter motor coil (Black or White Red). This will bypass the spider and its wiring.



John
 
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Quote
The fob puts the alarm on and off and the flashing light on the dash seems to correspond correctly and the indicators flash. I set the alarm, open the door, nothing happens, i put the key in and turn it and then the horn sounds, pressing the fob stops the alarm. That tells me the alarm is functioning to a degree and the fob works OK. However, the alarm does not sound on any doors or bonnet opening and neither with the internal sensor, only when I turn the ignition on.
Click to expand...
Does the interior lamp work with the door switches?
If not it may be as simple as bad door switches, wire or corrosion

Quote
Can I pack up all the bits and send them somewhere for testing? ECU, spider, fob etc.
Click to expand...
I've used Technozen in the past for conponents to add central locking he offers repairs but not used that service.

Quote
Can I rip out the factory and replace with a better after market alarm and if so, any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Best place to start is the spider ECU for a location to slice in an after market alarm espicialy if you dont have CDL or replace with the Land Rover part.

If you locate the spider ECU and dril off its metal box its simple to splice the wires together at the connector the correct 3 pairs of wires together.
They are all black without any identificatio on them I did have a diagram somewhere for this.

Replace the spider ECU with Genuine Land Rover Alarm Immobilisation Unit - Disco 1 - Defender - YWJ500020 I did this with mine as my alarm ECU became unreliable and I could not program the new 10AS to the existing spider and as I had a new one of these I picked up many years ago for a tenner it was an easy fix.

John
 
Found the Wiring for the spider bypass
knew I posted it at some time ago.
This is specificaly for the Discovery but the pin out is the same as the Defender as they both use the same bypass AMR4956
spider-jpg.jpg

Spider_AMR4956.jpg

Looking at the spider bypass lower left is pin 1 and top right is 10
If you look carefully the link are 2-3, 4-8 and 6-10

John
 
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Info for the interior light door switches / alarm activation from Landroverworkshop
C061 Connector - Defender 1996 300Tdi

Pin 5 SW Slate White (grey white) Right hand door switch
Pin 9 OU Orange Blue Bonnet switch
Pin16 PU Purple Blue Left hand door switch (+ tail door and or 2nd row doors if fitted)

Test the circuit by opening each door and checking the interior lamp function N.B this option can be turned off when programing the 10AS alarm ECU so may not give a true indication of what's happening.

Or pull the grey plug from the 10AS alarm module check the condition (pin connection can become unreliable if that become slack or corroded) and measure the resistance to ground from each of the pins 5, 9 and 16 when the appropriate door or bonnet is opened.

John
 
John, thank you very much for your comprehensive posts.
I started with the first one and testing the start relay and realised that there is a wire, 86 black orange that has a ring crimp on and looks like it should be earthed, which i did and hey presto!
But... from your post, it would appear this is a hack to bypass the alarm ECU which was probably done by the PO?

If so, at least its running as before and I can pursue the other points and get to the bottom of it.
 
Hi
Yep PO disabled the alarm crank control.
The alarm ECU will still send a coded signal to the spider to imobilise the vehicle if it hasent been removed.
Does the spider still exist or has it been bypassed either by fitting an AMR4956 or splicing the wires?
Remember the spider controls the stop solenoid aswell so may need bypassing if it still exists that circuit may also fail.
John
 
I should add that the brown/red 30 does not go 12v when the relay is energised and from your post, probably means that there is a fault with the alarm ECU?
 
If I set the alarm with the fob, the light flashes on the dash and when I open the doors, nothing happens. When I turn the ignition, the horn sounds and the engines cranks but it does not fire.
 
bonus99 said:
If I set the alarm with the fob, the light flashes on the dash and when I open the doors, nothing happens. When I turn the ignition, the horn sounds and the engines cranks but it does not fire.
Click to expand...
Thats sounds like 2 faults.
1) The door switch should activate the alarm when opened. (see earlier post for what to try)
2) The alarm should send the code to the spider to immobilise the vehicle when active ie disable crank which it isn't and disable the stop solenoid which it seems to be doing.
this indicates that maybe the PO has been messing with more wiring.

If you follow the wire back from the starter motor solenoid does it look factory or has it been messed with?

Does the motion detector still work?
arm the alarm wait for the LED to go from fast flash to slow flash and wave your arm in front of the unit (they can go bad with water ingress so may be unplugged)

I have a Hawkeye unit to program the 10AS but in will not even do the basic minimum to be worth its price.
You can program keys and get some live data but you can't set the alarm ECU to except a new spider or DDS module which means if you change any of those 3 conponents you can't reprogram the alarm and get the vehicle to run again.

John
 
bonus99 said:
I should add that the brown/red 30 does not go 12v when the relay is energised and from your post, probably means that there is a fault with the alarm ECU?
Click to expand...
This should go +12v when cranking the alarm only controls the ground for the relay coil at this location so aslong as the large brown 87 is permanent +12v and the relay is good and energises this should go live while the key is in the crank position, when returned to normal run it should be 0v.

John
 
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