My dogs have just had a fight....

[stevo]

... with each other Theres blood too

We have a collie/alsation cross aged 7 (human years) and a 1 year old border terrier.

The border had one of those Kong toys with a biscuit in as it entertains her for ages. For the second time in 2 days, the collie tried to take it. The collie is top dog by the way.

Now, the border is small, but thinks shes big! and hard. Have you seen the size of borders teeth? They belong in a much bigger dog.

Anyway, it was a whirling mass of fur... boys yelling, dogs yelping etc.

the collie had the borders head in its mouth (normal when they are play fighting) and the border was hurting.

I grabbed the collie by the scruff, no luck, so a hand on the top jaw got her off. Unfortunately, the border then saw her chance, and bit the collie on the leg, drawing blood on several places (big teeth see?)

she also managed to bite me, but luckily my fingernails got the teeth, so bruised rather than punctured, but throbbing like a throbby thinng!


Ended up with me having both dogs pinned to the floor by the scruff, which hopefully reinforces me as top dog, both dogs bleeding and kids crying. nice.

The collie is now upstairs sulking with a bandage round her leg, and the border terrier wandering round looking lost with a bloody face.

Obviously we don't want this to happen again, so there are now rules about food, treats and leftovers.

Any advice on how to resolve this? The border is in no way top dog normally, but they are a fiesty breed!

 

[hodghog]

use a spare collar as a conection and fasten them together by there collars they will then learn that they must do things together. without being in a position to bite each other alternativly double up on the toys no treats and feed them together

 

[K&S]

I think a lot depends also on their sexes. Often dogs of the same sex have a huge problem getting along even with the dominance factor. We've just got a new dog and my wife advised strongly against the same sex because she's had problems with her dogs previously like you've experienced because of it.

We've only had the new dog a day but so far so good. They'll also probably start the dominance role play.

I was reading up on the new dog (yellow labrador) and one of the sites was mentioning dominance and such like and where problems are intense to seek an animal behaviourist. Maybe you should look into that.

Hope all pans out well in the end.

 

[stevo]

use a spare collar as a conection and fasten them together by there collars they will then learn that they must do things together. without being in a position to bite each other alternativly double up on the toys no treats and feed them together

They both have toys, are fed at the same time so no favouritism as that just causes problems.

I like the idea of the collars, but the border terrier would be taken for a dangle by the alsation sized collie bear in mind that the border terrier can fit between the legs of the collie....

 

[stevo]

I think a lot depends also on their sexes. Often dogs of the same sex have a huge problem getting along even with the dominance factor. We've just got a new dog and my wife advised strongly against the same sex because she's had problems with her dogs previously like you've experienced because of it.

We've only had the new dog a day but so far so good. They'll also probably start the dominance role play.

I was reading up on the new dog (yellow labrador) and one of the sites was mentioning dominance and such like and where problems are intense to seek an animal behaviourist. Maybe you should look into that.

Hope all pans out well in the end.

Our next door neighbour trains dogs to show, and she advised against opposite sexes.

Previous to tonight, they've been fine, play fighting, tug games with toys etc.

We've had the border for a year, so its not a recent change either.


The border looks very forlorn, with the other one growling whenever she approaches, so looks good for the collie being top dog still

 

[Hubber]

I had this problem many years ago with 2 cock er spaniels. They were brothers and done everything together up until they were 7. then all hell broke loose. we had large vet bills with them trying to kill each other.
The vet tried many things from castration to tranx but nothing worked. the vet then said that we would need to get rid of one.
We could not do that however for the next 8 years we had to keep them separate at all times. baby gates all around the house
Each time they saw each other they would snarl and go mad. we never got to the bottom of what was wrong.

 

[Abu]

I had this problem many years ago with 2 cock er spaniels. They were brothers and done everything together up until they were 7. then all hell broke loose. we had large vet bills with them trying to kill each other.
The vet tried many things from castration to tranx but nothing worked. the vet then said that we would need to get rid of one.
We could not do that however for the next 8 years we had to keep them separate at all times. baby gates all around the house
Each time they saw each other they would snarl and go mad. we never got to the bottom of what was wrong.

Love triangle
--------------------

We put two male dogs together. Our original 7 yr old lab ignored the new pup at first and got a bit annoyed at its constant peeing The elder has remained in charge put every now and then the young un tries it on. One very dominant bark and it backs down If that fails...only once.... i did as you did and grabbed their scruffs and took them to the ground. They still play fight but the young un has turned out to be the biggest wimp on the earth. Sorted for the time being.

 

[adrianandkate]

We've not had the fight thing. The new ones into the pack have always backed down. No problems with fighting over toys or food either. Had labrador and then cross setter - labrador top and bigger dog. Then got alsatian, younger and fitter, but respected the lab as top dog until he died. Then the alsatian took over, poor cross setter never got to be top dog and didn't care. Big Spanish one waited for the alsatian to die before he became top dog.

Was the collie/alsatian cross poorly or was the feisty border flexing its muscles (teeth by the sound of it)? Maybe just felt that way out. Our dogs have always had toys but not with treats in. In fact we bought one of the rubber balls to put biscuits in and they were more interested in the ball - and no they were not overfed Is there anything different at home? Dunno, redecorating or anything that might have disrupted the routine? They are so sensitive about changes in the immediate environment. Ours asks to go out before it rains because he can smell/hear/sense it coming and doesn't like gettin wet. Not relevant to fighting but to try and suggest there may be something else that triggered it.

Some of the psychology stuff talks about reinforcing the top dog position, ie feed it first, say hello to it first when you come in. Don't know whether I have a view about it, but it's another aspect to think about. Good luck!

 

[stevo]

Some excellent thoughts coming out, cheers

Given that Nellie (the collie / alsation) had Ludo's head in her mouth and Ludo was yelping, I had to grab Nellies top jaw to get her to release.

I now realise that the bruised fingernails are the result of Nellie biting me.

While I had Nellie released, Ludo in a young dog frenzy, and bleeding from her face, took the opportunity to get Nellies leg....

Very quickly, I had them both pinned down, and held until I was sure they wouldn't start again when I released them.

So, its my fault the top dog Nellie got hurt, but she was way aggressive to Ludo, trying to take Ludos treat, even though Nellie had one of her own.

No changes in the house, but the snow makes the dogs a bit excitable (me too!)

In terms of meeting and greeting, my wife and the kids get greeted first and the dogs get ignored until I'm ready to fuss them to make sure theres a hierarchy.

I'm hoping its sorted - Nellie is asleep on our bed (a rare treat) with a sore leg, and Ludo is still pacing around, ears down , tail down....

 

[stevo]

And so it goes on...........

after another fight last week, over a stick and then one tonight over, well, nothing really... the small one is going to be speyed next week. That apparently should calm her a bit, and for now, she is ignored in favour of Nellie, the older bigger dog.

I'm getting a bit fed up of prising two fighting dogs apart...

Apparently, it can be to do with the younger dog reaching social maturity, so we are going to really reinforce the hierarchy now. The kids are banned from playing with the dogs to help...

should be fun.

 

[alex]

It`s just your luck with what you get. Border terriers will face up to anything.
I`ve seen it with cockers too....again a terrier involved.......Cocker ended up killing terrier once the terrier got older. Terriers can be like that..trouble but I like them.

Alex

 

[redhand]

They both have toys, are fed at the same time so no favouritism as that just causes problems.

And that's part of the problem. there is no equality in a dog pack so you have to decide which one of them is going to be dominant and make him/her your favorite. if the other one attacks you have to defend your chosen dog not just try to seperate them. It's hard I know but they're dogs not humans and they don't live by our standards and rules.

My ex had the same problem she has a 9year old staffie/rottweiler cross big big softie. her husband has a 4 year black Lab/sutherland cross also big softie been together 4 years, couple of months ago they had a set too in a carpark 24 stiches between the 2 of them and 2 stiches in the ex's thumb where one of them bit her. They've had another go at each other fortunately I was visiting at the time and grabbed their collars while she threw a bucket of water over them. (that stops em everytime). Now the lab/sutherland lives in a big run in the back garden and the staffy lives in the house. They have to be walked seperately because they hate each other so much.

 

[Foxdog01]

Having kept and bred working terriers for 25 years I would say that your susspicion about age is about right. Your little border is a huge border in her mind and given the chance will now retaliate to any provocation. The only trouble being that she will have the occasional hiding from her kennel mate (old saying a good big un' will always beat a good little one, always rings ture in a kennel). But be careful her day will come as age creeps up on the crossbred.

You must enforce your dominance and only feed when you are present, clamping down on any unwanted behaviour. Good Luck it can be a slow and upseting process.

 

[stevo]

Having kept and bred working terriers for 25 years I would say that your susspicion about age is about right. Your little border is a huge border in her mind and given the chance will now retaliate to any provocation. The only trouble being that she will have the occasional hiding from her kennel mate (old saying a good big un' will always beat a good little one, always rings ture in a kennel). But be careful her day will come as age creeps up on the crossbred.

You must enforce your dominance and only feed when you are present, clamping down on any unwanted behaviour. Good Luck it can be a slow and upseting process.

spot on - she has a huge personality ! She's still young, so doesn't know when to quit. When I separated them today, we put her in a separate room for 5 mins while I checked the collie for wounds. When we let her back in, she went straight for the collie

Tonight, both dogs are being ignored.

 

[Deb]

can I just ask............. will the Border be agressive towards you (or other humans) if she has a treat/stick/kong etc

our lurcher guards his food/treats/balls ferociously from the other 2 dogs and us humans. He is not the top dog and usually submits to the smallest terrier. We feed them in separate rooms and he gets fed last and always is made to sit and wait till last for treats and this has solved the prob, but there can be some hairy moments if he takes a liking to something when we are out in an un-controlled environment.

i started taking a water pistol out on walks............. as he hated water being sprayed at him, and this worked 100% if he started guarding anything or becoming at all agressive towards the terriers.

Dogs will sort themselves out, when it comes to heirarchy and it may be the case that the border will become top dog.......... whether that is what you want or not........ although Nellie would have to submit to Ludo for this to happen.

i hope it sorts itself out as it is awful to see them fighting, when we got our lurcher my little JR seemed to like him, then when she realised he was staying not just visiting she decided she hated him! Then for 4 weeks she would snarl and snap at him if he even looked at her.......... i was lucky she is not very terrier-ish and never actually bit him, and at the time he was very submissive and didnt retaliate, but it did get to the point that i thought he may have to go back to dogs home. Thankfully it sorted itself out and they get on well now.

again i hope they resolve things

 

[stevo]

can I just ask............. will the Border be agressive towards you (or other humans) if she has a treat/stick/kong etc

both my wife and I can take anything we want, whenever we want, off either dog. Thats the way its always been. I doubt the 5 year old could do that with the terrier, but Nellie would let him. We wouldn't tho

If we can't sort this, then we will get the help of an animal behaviourist - its too important and needs sorting!

 

[COOPS70]

Treating two dogs equally upsets the balance in the pack you need to sort out the pack mentality by sorting out a lower alpha dog under you, as some one else said its a pecking order thing. The age will also be a factor where the younger dog will via for a leg up the ladder so to speak, Use your leader position to enforce the dogs positions in the family/pack. Be careful not to alienate the lower dog. Set the positions but try to be fair too hope it helps

 

[stevo]

And this morning - both dogs were eyeing each other up, it was so going to be an almighty scrap.

One visit to the pet shop later, and they are both muzzled
Hate doing it, but within 5 minutes, a big fight started. There didn't appear to be a trigger.

Anyway, both dogs were pushed outside, and left to it. I had the hose ready in case a muzzle came off.

The older bigger dog won with no blood
But the younger one won't leave it....

Currently, the bigger one is in her fave chair, everytime the small one approaches, theres hackles, growling and whale eye...

Hopefully, the muzzles will prevent bloodshed while they sort it out!

Many thanks for all the advice

 

[COOPS70]

Watch out for a roll over onto the back from one of the dogs at that point your problems should be over Its a mark of subservience.

 

[stevo]

Watch out for a roll over onto the back from one of the dogs at that point your problems should be over Its a mark of subservience.

That would be a happy moment. for us...

Two big fights today, all instigated by the small one jumping up.
We are in touch with a dog behaviourist (sp) to solve this.

While we are speaking to her, I might ask her how to set the timing on a 200tdi