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Running a 200tdi without intercooler?

ROB 110 HICAP

ROB 110 HICAP

Extreme Landy Fan
When I get round to binning the 19jTD and buying and fitting a 200tdi (HAHA) what would happen if I did not initially fit an intercooler? I'm just thinking from the point of view that if I get an engine and fit it, I'd save a bit more dosh to finish the job off later. I'm guessing loss of power but any damage likely?
 
Your performance would be terrible.

The air flows from the air cleaner to the turbo, then from the turbo through the intercooler to the inlet manifold. I have yet to find a way of going directly from the turbo to the inlet manifold without degrading performance.

Thing is, this is a LR design that works very well. By messing with it, we are just creating headaches.

Keep your eyes open for the correct radiator that has the intercooler, radiator and oil cooler.
 
pssst Red and stephen have uprated their intercoolers and muy have the old ones laying around, not too sure....


Cheers
 
I presume it will be running too rich, the incomming air will be hot and expand where as if it came from the intercooler it would be dense and match the fueling. I suppose you could wind the pump down a bit to match the air volume but I dont think it would be worth it, surely a second hand one could be picked up reasonably?
Rgds
Mike
 
MIKESLANDY said:
I presume it will be running too rich, the incomming air will be hot and expand where as if it came from the intercooler it would be dense and match the fueling. I suppose you could wind the pump down a bit to match the air volume but I dont think it would be worth it, surely a second hand one could be picked up reasonably?
Rgds
Mike
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Diesels don't work like that. The more fuel you inject, the more power you'll get. Power output is controlled by increasing or decreasing the fuel delivery. Petrols, on the other hand, do have mixture tolerances, and it is the combined air and fuel charge that has to be controlled to manage output.

Without an intercooler, you'll be noticeably down on power but I don't think you;ll harm anything. The pistons and bores would be under less pressure due to the reduced charge density. The intercooler supplies cooler air on the induction stroke which would help piston temperatures, but the increased air density would produce much more of an adiabatic temperature rise on the compression and exhaust strokes, so I don't think there would be any adverse thermal issues.
 
Thanks folks, Snag you confirmed what I think th intercooler did. If i didn't fit the cooler straight away it would only be cos I didn't get one with the engine I get. Hopefully sourcing a cheap cooler and rad would happen soon after. Engine first...well cash before that...oh and finish kingpins, tre's, waxoyl, MOT!
 
Snagger is right,no harm will come to the engine - it will just make less power.I was thinking about running a 200 TDI engine in my series IIA,without a turbo or intercooler as they are so cheap to buy now.As it spends all its time in low range in mud or on narrow lanes,the power output is not an issue.What I was interested in was an engine that is totally reliable,an instant starter and able to run on rape oil extract when my contacts plans get going.Plus the brakes etc wouldnt need any changes.
 
OOOPS!. Now Im a bit confused, could I fit an intercooler on my old 2.5turbo without adjusting the injector pump? but why should I fit an intercooler when all I need to do is adjust the fueling to increase power?
Is it not true that the mixture would be too lean with an intercooler fitted to a 2.5turbo.?
Not doubting you Snagger, just trying to get my thick head around it:D
Mike

Just thought again.....are you saying the intercooler is only there to reduce the temp in the combustion chamber?
 
MIKESLANDY said:
OOOPS!. Now Im a bit confused, could I fit an intercooler on my old 2.5turbo without adjusting the injector pump? but why should I fit an intercooler when all I need to do is adjust the fueling to increase power?
Is it not true that the mixture would be too lean with an intercooler fitted to a 2.5turbo.?
Not doubting you Snagger, just trying to get my thick head around it:D
Mike

Just thought again.....are you saying the intercooler is only there to reduce the temp in the combustion chamber?
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No, your 19J will just go bang at some point. You would get initial performance gains from an intercooler and increased fueling, but it's too much stress for the engine and it'll crack the head and pistons. Keeper of Tess has plenty of experience of this. I think he increased the fueling to match the increased air charge, but I think the increased density and adiabatic temperature rises would be enough to kill the engine even without pump adjustment. It's a suspicion rather than a statement of fact, but it could be an expensive experiment if I'm right.
 
As Snagger says, the Intercooler/Aftercooler is there to reduce the temperature of the air, by cooling it, so making it more dense. The amount of air in the cylinder is greater, so you can introduce more fuel (it's all down to ratios of fuel to air).

If you don't fit the Cooler, you would need to cut the fuel slightly or it will still inject the same amount, with less air, and cause a bit of smoke. You could alter the boost diaphragm/rod a bit, so it didn't put as much fuel in when the Turbo was sensed.

Chris
 
Snagger said:
No, your 19J will just go bang at some point. You would get initial performance gains from an intercooler and increased fueling, but it's too much stress for the engine and it'll crack the head and pistons. Keeper of Tess has plenty of experience of this. I think he increased the fueling to match the increased air charge, but I think the increased density and adiabatic temperature rises would be enough to kill the engine even without pump adjustment. It's a suspicion rather than a statement of fact, but it could be an expensive experiment if I'm right.
Click to expand...

Point taken on my old 19j they are stressed enough as they are. I will take another angle, say you fit a larger alisport intercooler to a 200tdi, dont you increase the setting in the fuel injection pump to give a balanced mixture air to fuel?


As Snagger says, the Intercooler/Aftercooler is there to reduce the temperature of the air, by cooling it, so making it more dense. The amount of air in the cylinder is greater, so you can introduce more fuel (it's all down to ratios of fuel to air).

If you don't fit the Cooler, you would need to cut the fuel slightly or it will still inject the same amount, with less air, and cause a bit of smoke. You could alter the boost diaphragm/rod a bit, so it didn't put as much fuel in when the Turbo was sensed.

ChrisChris, this is more or less what I was talking about in my first post
"I presume it will be running too rich, the incoming air will be hot and expand where as if it came from the intercooler it would be dense and match the fueling. I suppose you could wind the pump down a bit to match the air volume but I dont think it would be worth it, surely a second hand one could be picked up reasonably?
Rgds
Mike"

Is it??

Mike
 
Just try it, Mike. It's not usually done, so you can do it first and let us know. People usually want to fit them, not remove them.

For a permanent setup like JONs, he will reset the pump. For a temporary setup, you might just need a light right foot.

Chris
 
Not me Chris, I have read enough posts on forums to know better, Im just trying to get my head around the whole purpose of an intercooler. Rob was consideringing fittind a TDI without an intercooler, I suggested that the injector pump would be delivering more fuel than is required(rich), that is all.
Mike
 
The turbo is intended to increase the pressure only, but in doing so increases temperature. This reduces the air density, offsetting some of the work done ny the turbo. By cooling the air to ambient temperature before it enters the engine, you can regain to original density but at the boosted pressure, so you get the best of both worlds. The standard intercooler will reduce the charge temperature, but not all the way back to the ambient. A bigger intercooler will allow more cooling and less airflow restriction, so increases induction efficiency in two ways. A big enough intercooler could theoretically reduce the charge temperature to ambient and have virtually no flow restriction, but would be difficult to fit.

The purpose of increasing the air pressure and density is to cram as many air molecules into the cylinder on the induction stoke as possible. This then allows more fuel molecules to be injected usefully and burnt, thus giving more power per stroke.

Chris is right that the 200 would create a little smoke from running without an intercooler when you accelerate. It would be a trace of unburnt fuel, so the smokke would be whitish grey. It'll do no harm and will not be present when maintaining speed, only when working the engine hard and gaining turbo boost.
 
I find it odd that you say running no intercooler will not have any thermal loading effects; on a naturally aspirated engine there is a balance to a degree temperature-wise between compression and expansion of the air charge (not considering the fuel energy) i.e. you compress the air it gets hotter and as it expands it cools. If you run a turbo and introduce air into the engine which has gained heat energy from the exhaust system then that heating of the air must result in higher internal engine temperatures at the same speed/load conditions compared to using charge-cooled air. If you don't want the risk of thermal issues in a turbo diesel because the intercooler isn't yet fitted, the best way of achieving this IMHO is to completely disable the turbo so it doesn'tproduce any boost then the fuelling wont be boosted. What you'll have in effect is a direct injection 2.5 NA engine.
 
Rob, you can have my 300Tdi intercooler if you can use it. Give me the nod and I'll bring it to the Treasure Hunt. ;)

AJ
 
toppa said:
You got a uprated intercooler hiding under all that bling????


:D

Cheers
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I thought you knew. I've had it in a couple of ears now. In fact I may have tried to palm the old one off on you when you were down mine last. :D

AJ
 
AJC said:
I thought you knew. I've had it in a couple of ears now. In fact I may have tried to palm the old one off on you when you were down mine last. :D

AJ
Click to expand...


Nope, never knew, was thinking about it myself actually, but spent the money on a new pc this month insted, so next month now :D


Cheers
 
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