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TD5 cold start problem

Ibex

Ibex

Accelerating Away
My 2004, 98k miles, TD5 Defender has a starting problem, which only appears when cold. It will fire when the key is turned, but won't run. It can take several attempts to get it past this fire then fail situation but it always starts ultimately - after maybe 5 tries on average. All summer - no problem, but the return of cold weather and I'm cranking the starter again.

So far I have replaced the fuel pump and the valve block on the engine and the air temp sensor in the manifold. I have also had the injector seals replaced. None of this made any difference. Parking it nose down on my driveway seems to help.

Once started in the morning it will start all day perfectly and it runs fine. On a recent trip it delivered 34 mpg (with overdrive) so not much matter with its general health I would say. It also checks out as excellent on Landrover diagnostic plug in tool.

I'm currently stuck for ideas as to what to try next and would welcome any suggestions from you experts out there?
 
Thanks for response guys. If it was a repriming issue, then it would apply warm weather or cold? I had the problem last winter, but its been fine all summer. It's had a filter change this summer, but run 6k miles since. I am however concerned that it's drawing air in from somewhere, which would match the symptoms and would necessitate a reprime as you suggest. But even if I leave it switched on with the pump running for a minute or so, it doesn't seem to improve its ability to start.

I am going to swap out the starter this week as a pal has a spare which has had new contacts fitted and we'll see if it makes any difference.

Thanks again and I'll be sure to post results of both checks,

Dave
 
Just swapped out the starter motor at the weekend. Made no difference. Really struggling for ideas now. Everybody tells me that a TD5 will start without heater plugs - but the problem I have is only in cold weather, so it would fit? Only other thing I can think of is where does the "cold" message go from the ECU? Is there some part of the injection that isn't doing whatever it should on a cold morning? Once the engine kicks I can drag it slightly by using the accelerator, but it will still take 4 or 5 goes to get it to keep running - which again suggests to me that it isn't getting as much fuel as it needs on startup - but why?

Increasingly desperate for Chorley!
 
Ive got the same problem as you and replaced the fuel block, pump and injector seals and my only conclustion is to get the injectors tested as i think one could be returning too much fuel, i did also have 2 glow plugs down which i replaced the set no difference,
Keep us posted if u find anything as im waiting for the weather to stop snowing before have the injectors tested
Will
 
Another local expert advised me last week to replace the injector loom to cure the problem. Cost me another £52 and didn't fix the problem. Only good bit was it only takes a half hour to fit. Next thing for me is to replace the heater plugs as they've never been touched - because everybody tells me the TD5 will start without. But maybe none of them work? Would it still start in cold weather? After that it only remains to have the injectors tested. I think they're over £400 each, but a refurb is "only" about £180. That's £900 for the five, plus fitting.
New symptom though, whilst I was out buying heater plugs on Friday, the motor died on me during acceleration. Like my foot had slipped off the gas pedal. The MIL light came on the dash, but the engine didn't actually stop. I sat at the roadside a moment and revved it - all seemed well - so I set off again. Same thing happened, first bold acceleration in 2nd and total power loss. MIL light on again. Cruise to roadside once again with engine on tickover. MIL light went out and I tried it again. This time it worked and I drove around to local Landrover specialist who put his laptop on the job - only to find no recorded fault!

Today I drove to Wales and back with it and no recurrance of the problem, but starting is still the same pantomime. New heater plugs tomorrow.
 
Morning Dave...

New symptom though, whilst I was out buying heater plugs on Friday, the motor died on me during acceleration. Like my foot had slipped off the gas pedal. The MIL light came on the dash, but the engine didn't actually stop. I sat at the roadside a moment and revved it - all seemed well - so I set off again. Same thing happened, first bold acceleration in 2nd and total power loss. MIL light on again. Cruise to roadside once again with engine on tickover. MIL light went out and I tried it again. This time it worked and I drove around to local Landrover specialist who put his laptop on the job - only to find no recorded fault!
Click to expand...

This sounds like overboost - usually caused by a sticking wastegate. Do this test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyZ4zXPZOf8

Strange it didn't log a fault though.


Going back to your original problem:

When you say it checks out as perfect on the diagnostic tool - do you mean just looking at fault codes, or looking at live data - and actually knowing what figures your should be getting.

The one thing that normally causes this poor starting is the MAF sensor - either it's failed, giving duff values, or it's a cheap Ebay special.
I ignored this orignally, as you said you'd had it checked out...

But what figure are you getting at idle? you should see around the 57kg/hr.

If if you get 0kg/hr, 4kg/hr or anything less than 50kg/hr it's duff.


Ian
 
Had the car checked out on an Autocom bit of kit today, which gave the crank angle sensor a clean bill of health. It did however record the fact that the MAF sensor was recording something like 48kg/hr. £82 later and I have a new one on the motor. 6 hours later with it sat on the drive - and it took three attempts to get it going. You may see that as an improvement, but it hasn't had the full overnight cold soak so I'm not so sure. In any case, it's still not right.

Everybody tells me that a TD5 will start without heater plugs. If all the heater plugs were duff however, or maybe the plug relay just isn't working, would you still expect the thing to start? It really is all I can think of left to replace!

Desperate of Chorley
 
£82 - I hope that is a genuine part one, in a genuine box. Not a 'genuine' spec version?

It is strange, as a Td5 will normally start with glow plugs, but then this colder weather than normal.

Under the seat box, have a look at the main black relay and the plug it sits in. This supplies the power to the engine harness inc glow plugs. The relay should have a large brown wire into it, and a yellow and black wire amoung others. In the past, I have found the end of the brown wire (where it goes into the relay) completely green and corroded... which isn't good.


Ian
 
my disco td5 starts without waiting for the glow light if that is any use (even in the minus temperatures ), just jump in and start it up like a petrol car ,, didnt even realise it had a glow light till recently after reading a few threads
 
After last night's disappointment, went out to the thing this morning and it started first time! It's not as cold as it was last night, not even freezing, but it implies an improvement I think? I will check the underseat area today as you suggest and also off to check that the plugs are actually getting voltage.

One thing I forgot to add about yesterday's diagnostic; the guy said that holding it on about 2,500 revs produced a "hunting" from the engine, with revs continually rising and falling despite a steady foot on the gas. Could this be attributed to the MAF sensor?

Thanks for your insight - it's very much appreciated.

Not quite so desperate of Chorley
 
Back to business as usual yesterday with 4 attempts to get the car to start. Temp well above freezing, maybe around 5 or 6 C.

Checked the heater plugs for voltage supply and sure enough, they get 12 volts the moment the ignition is on and it goes off after a few seconds. Oddly enough, I also discovered today that a TD5 only has 4 heater plugs! Who'd have thought it? So tomorrow I shall go and buy 4 shiny new ones because I cant think of anything else to do.

Utterly baffled.
 
I left the car parked nose down on the drive last night to confirm that it will always go with a bump start, which it invariably does. A frosty morning but the bloody thing fired up perfectly at first turn of the key!

I thought I was doing the bumpstart thing to prove that my replacement starter was no better than my original in that it still spiked the crank angle sensor. A long shot, I know, but what else can I do? But instead I find it starts perfectly in cold weather when nose down - so forget all electrical sensor/heater plug stuff, this is a fuel drain back problem? Question is, where is the air leak likely to be and why doesn't the fuel drain back in warm weather as well as cold?
 
I once heard that the housing the fuel filter screws onto can become porous, not sure how accurate this is, but may be worth a search on the forum to find out more...

CHeers
 
i had similar starting problems in recent cold was only coldest mornings, -15 to -20c but the engine would turn over and start for few seconds then cut out, needed to try several times to get it going properly and it sounded as if had a misfire until warm. i thought it might be to do with the fuel filter- perhaps water in the sedimenter had frozen but alls well now temperature is up. not sure if diesel still waxes at low temp or if new additives have stopped this.
it seeems strange that your engine starts better when nose down- sounds like a fuel pick up or delivery problem
 
sounds like its the injector loom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! fault
remove drivers seat and plate then take the red plug off the ecu and see if you have any sign of oil in the plug this will cause your problem will cost you about £80 to fix
loom is about £40-£50 rocker gasket £30 max
or over boost as already stated good luck
 
Returned from a 400 mile trip last night and its pretty cold this morning. Car was parked nose down and fired up second turn of the key. Pretty good! Switched it off again and went inside. An hour or so later I went back outside and I didn't think it was going to start at all! Three very long spinning sessions on the starter before it showed any sign of life at all - and then it burst into full and healthy song. I am at a complete loss as to what to do next. Any suggestions?
 
jonny.c said:
sounds like its the injector loom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! fault
remove drivers seat and plate then take the red plug off the ecu and see if you have any sign of oil in the plug this will cause your problem will cost you about £80 to fix
loom is about £40-£50 rocker gasket £30 max
or over boost as already stated good luck
Click to expand...

I already replaced the injector loom a couple of weeks ago, although I couldn't see any oil in the connector plug. I checked out the red plug into the ECU this afternoon and found no evidence of oil there either. I did see however evidence of verdigris along the bottom row of holes/pins, which could indicate water ingress at some stage?. Gave a gentle squirt of WD40 and then dried it off with an air line. Took two attempts to start it immediately afterwards.
 
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