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United Utilities are trying to curb your freedom

educationalist

educationalist

Big Landy Fan
Many of you will either drive off road, or fish, walk, or just go for a picnic in such places as the Lake District the Peak District and its surrounding areas.
And with the opening up of thousand of hectares of land with the Countryside Rights of Way Act we now have even more choice and we do this with out monetary charge. This however is about to change unless we do something about it, for you see United Utilities wants to charge us a fee :eek: to use the 58.000 hectares of land it owns, by invoking a clause it has found buried deep within the 'Countryside Rights of Way Act clause 1 section 2' which reads "does not entitle anyone to be on any land if they engages in any activity that is organised for commercial purpose or gain". This means that if you go out as a club and dues or fees are paid, or running an adventure day then this could be classified as a commercial venture! What is worrying is that by trying to charge a fee for using the countryside this could open the floodgates for any land owner to follow suit, and to interpret this clause to their own ends.
If this is allowed to happen it could set public access back thirty years. Outdoor interest groups are lobbing United Utilities and Mps about this. Remember to charge people to use land that they have been using for decades free is just not on.
If you feel strongly on this issue email the following MPs and tell them so.:Bloodymad
http://www.davidmaclean.com/

www.tonycunningham.com

PHP: 
[email protected]
[email protected]
 
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welshlaner said:
What happens if private groups, say bunch of mates go out, they do not charge, no payment or club dues, does these cause cover them
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It all depends on the interpretation of the clause.
United Utilities have been quoted as saying that they would never charge children or educational groups (does that then mean that they would charge everyone else that does not fall into those categories)
 
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no , they will only charge you if you run a legit business on their property by means of using their property as a part of that business.
which is fair enough really.
 
We could be classed as an educational group. We indoctrinate (as schools do) others into our way of life to spend lots of money on our loved ones. Occaisionally we will spend money on our partners as well - you know, things like bacon, bread, milk tea sugar.............

Shall I put my flameproof coat on now?
 
nobber said:
no , they will only charge you if you run a legit business on their property by means of using their property as a part of that business.
which is fair enough really.
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The point is that everybody and anybody should have right to public access land, any category ,be it private or commercial are entitled to be on public access land.
United Utilities own Ennerdale, Anglezarke, Thirlmere, Pex Hill, Forest of Bowland, Shining Clough, Goyt Valley. And if many other major landowners think this is just an excellent wheeze for generating cash you might just start kissing goodbye to free access to a lot of your favourite off road sites altogether, no matter who you are. All the other major water companies will certainly follow suit so say goodbye to Scotland and Southern England, Wales, etc, free access
 
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educationalist said:
The point is that everybody and anybody should have right to public access land, any category ,be it private or commercial are entitled to be on public access land.
United Utilities own Ennerdale, Anglezarke, Thirlmere, Pex Hill, Forest of Bowland, Shining Clough, Goyt Valley. And if many other major landowners think this is just an excellent wheeze for generating cash you might just start kissing goodbye to free access to a lot of your favourite off road sites altogether, no matter who you are. All the other major water companies will certainly follow suit so say goodbye to Scotland and Southern England, Wales, etc, free access
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I presume this is Open access land you are talking about. If so they cannot charge a non commercial organisation full stop. Now I own a small parcel of woodland that is in an open access area I have no problem with that, but I would be sorely p155ed if I found someone running commercial activities on MY land, without my permission, and without contributing to the mantainance costs, where would you draw the line.

from the act:
"a person is not entitled to be on Open Access land if they are engaged in any activity which is organised or undertaken (whether by him or another) for any commercial purpose,' - 'commercial' being defined as an operation where 'profit is the primary motive.'"

There is a big difference to a club day out and Joe fourxfour chargeing to take a group out and earning a living at it.
 
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I am sure i have come across this before

Was led to believe it only covers open access land they cannot charge you for using legal footpaths if on foot and legal ROW's such as BOATs if using a vechicle.

I think the forresty commision tried this in parts of Wales for mountain Bikers on land which had no legal ROW. Also the water companies have tired to charge for access around thier lakes but again there was not ROW

They tired to charge just vechicles but found that people just parked all over the place often blocking their access points

Could they charge you on a legal ROW
 
educationalist said:
This means that if you go out as a club and dues or fees are paid....then this could be classified as a commercial venture!
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It could, but I don't think it is unless the Club is VAT registered as a genuine business and operates solely for profit in the way you mention.
 
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Cannonball Bob said:
It could, but I don't think it is unless the Club is VAT registered as a genuine business and operates solely for profit in the way you mention.
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I think it would work on the grounds of, if you belong to a club and you go out as a group for a days green laning, walk or climb etc then there would be no charge as it's not commercial, however if the club organises regular days out for the same activities with the services of a paid guide/instructor and charged for that service then it's commercial and then a licence would be needed.
 
If they were charging for access they would need to be suitably insured. I would imagine insuring an unknown quantity of people carrying out unknown persuits could be difficult.

The right to roam legislation interest groups could not get their heads around the fact that somebody actually owns the land. A bad law was passed by an ignorant metropolitan biased government and it will, with luck, come back to bite them.

Rights of way are just that, open access was a ticket to go where the hell you please. If UU and the ther water companies have found a loophole, good on them.
 
An interesting point in law is that if United Utilities do go ahead and charge for access to their land then under English law they may be culperable for any injury or mishap that happened to any individual on their land. As between 300 and 450 persons are injured in the Lake District public access land alone it may be that in the end the shareholders would see this move as a negative due to claims made against their company, Who Knows. If United Utilities or any land owner was to charge admission to use their land they would by law have to maintain that land in a proper and fit state 58.000 hectares of land will take some maintaining !
 
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I wouldnt worry too much. Ive been dealing with united utilities on behalf of a client for about the last 8 months and id be surprised if they could count to high enough numbers to work out a fee, or indeed if they even know whether they own any land, or what land is, or whos feet they can see at the end of their trouser legs.... in all likelyhood when attempting to access the land you'd be put on hold for a year, passed to eight different offices, told several confilicting stories and then cut off. Oh and then when you ring back all the people you had dealt with would have left. (all just my opinion if there's any lawyers reading this..)
 
it sounds very much like what the Forestry commision already does. You are charged to run on their land if it is for example an orgnaised event. But a couple of you going for a ride out one sunday, is okay.

I have to say, this freedom to roam thing is getting a little out of hand, and can understand the issue of land owners getting upset. After all, would anyone be happy to have a troop or ramblers walk across their garden, because they have the right to roam. I think not. The principle of right to roam is good, but it is been taken to an extreme in some cases.

When the United utilities has to pay for the upkeep of the roads they use on their own land, why should they not get something back for the use by others. It is almost like having hire car companies just handing out keys for cars and not charging people for their use...

The question should be of course, who should pay united utilites or other land owners for the use of their own private roads. Seems to be a sensible approach at present with the existing law, you earn money from it, then you pay.
 
educationalist said:
An interesting point in law is that if United Utilities do go ahead and charge for access to their land then under English law they may be culperable for any injury or mishap that happened to any individual on their land. As between 300 and 450 persons are injured in the Lake District public access land alone it may be that in the end the shareholders would see this move as a negative due to claims made against their company, Who Knows. If United Utilities or any land owner was to charge admission to use their land they would by law have to maintain that land in a proper and fit state 58.000 hectares of land will take some maintaining !
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They have that covered as part of the proposed licensing agreement, you (the group organiser/leader) would have of provide proof of liability insurance and copies of any risk assesments etc carry put for the activity and location.
 
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