• Welcome to the Land Rover UK Forums

    You are currently viewing the site as a guest and some content may not be available to you.

    Registration is quick and easy and will give you full access to the site and allow you to ask questions or make comments and join in on the conversation. If you would like to register then please Register Now

Diesel Engines Biodiesel - the definative answer

R

RichardCorso

In Second Gear
For all of those confused about Biodiesel - here's some help

FYI ALL Diesel engines will run on 100% biodiesel - However there are two precautions

1 - You will need to change your fuel filter once you start running Biodiesel - simply because it cleans the fuel tank of all the filthy carbon deposits and gunk from the tank and fuel lines. If your engines fuel injected then yes you may also have to clean out the injectors after running on 100% biodiesel for the first time.

2 - If you are running an old diesel fuelled vehicle you will need to replace the rubber fuel seals on the fuel pump etc with new sythetic rubber seals. This is because biodiesel and rubber do not mix - it softens the rubber and leaks can form.

That's it folks - it's that difficult to run 100% biodiesel.

Yes you will hear of shock stories from some of the filthy derv diesel suppliers about engine problems - it's all lies. Biodiesel first of all better lubricates the engine and cleans all of the moving parts and also cleans the fuel system - hence the gunge that forms and you need to replace the fuel filter.

Biodiesel has a higher burn factor and is therefore safer to store.

MAN Industries, Mercedes and many other car and truck manufacturers recommend the use of Biodiesel and yes 100% Biodiesel. It's the ignorance or Dealers and Distributors who cause some of this confusion.

If enough members are interested here, I can provide support information on Biodiesel that puts to rest many of these alarmist messages from filthy carbon diesel suppliers. The reason they suggest only using 10% to 20% Biodiesel is simply to keep you weened on filthy carbon diesel.

Note - DO NOT GET CONFUSED with Vegetable Oil added to diesel - this is NOT Biodiesel and I know from experience does clog up injectors and fuel filter on a regular basis - you may save pennies on fuel costs by using vegetable oil with derv but you pay much more servicing the car to clean out the regular blockages.

One final note for now for those worried about using 100% Biodiesel and cold weather - today Biodiesel has been developed to such a high level that Virgin Airlines is using it on some of the transatlantic flights - where temperatures reach -40'C - yes there is a heating element associated with this type of operation - but the same would be employed if your vehicle was used in extremely cold environments - the oil and fuel tanks have heaters and you plug you vehicle in over night.

If you want clear and unambiguous information from a 100% biodiesel user - let me know and I will provide you with the information.

Note that there are many sources of Biodiesel and MAN and Mercedes only guarantee their warranty with Biodiesel produces from Rape Seed oil (Canola Oil) - not tallow or other forms of animal fat as the quality of such Biodiesel produced from Tallow cannot be guaranteed.
 
so the basic lines is that bio is safe to use and you dont have to use any diesel with it either as i have just swopped over to bio and done 424 miles so far on bio
 
I forgot to mention I'm running a 1994 300 tdi auto discovery so far it's going realy well and seems to be getting better and better on the bio I'd heard so many stories about bio you just don't know what to belive and what's right and what's wrong
 
micheal said:
I forgot to mention I'm running a 1994 300 tdi auto discovery so far it's going realy well and seems to be getting better and better on the bio I'd heard so many stories about bio you just don't know what to belive and what's right and what's wrong
Click to expand...

Michael, I will only provide an honest answer here to any queries. I have an interest with Biodiesel for over 10 years and have done a lot of research work and have met with Biodiesel experts in Essen Germany. I do not have any financial or business interests with Biodiesel so I'm not going to give an opposite opinion to say a Derv Diesel person for the sake of it.

I can point anyone to up to date research work and work that has been carried out now for some time so that there are real world examples rather than just from a Laboratory.

Engine Lubrication concerns

It's a fact that Biodiesel lubricates better a diesel engine and does NOT require any blend or mix with Carbon (Derv) type diesel to provide the lubrication.

For example:
"Biodiesel methyl esters improve the lubrication properties ("lubricity") of the diesel fuel blend. Long term engine wear studies have been conducted in Europe and in the US. Porsche (Germany) determined that neat (100%) Biodiesel reduced long term engine wear in test diesel engines to less than half of what was observed in engines running on current low sulfur diesel fuel. Lubricity properties of fuel are important for reducing friction wear in engine components normally lubricated by the fuel rather than crankcase oil. "

Please take a look at the following website - "The Technical Handbook for Marine Biodiesel in Recreational Boats" - http://www.cytoculture.com/Biodiesel Handbook.htm#Lubricity Properties it covers most of the concerns people have shown here in the use of Biodiesel and covers all of the major subjects.

If you have any specific concerns about Biodiesel - let me know and I will try to answer them.
 
hi ,
Some interesting points , thank you .
Could you clarify what you mean by biodiesel . I think i may have seen such products on sale , but they were maybe 5% vegetable based . Is it possible to buy 100% ? Is it any different to straight veg oil ?
Ok -sceptical hat on here - am glad that there is a fuel substitute , and that it's better than 'normal' diesel , but where are we going to grow it ?
Sorry , i know that's an easy pop ,but .....
(Should i be concerned by the 'filthy carbon deposits' that are in my fuel tank ? )
 
lazyman said:
hi ,
Some interesting points , thank you .
Could you clarify what you mean by biodiesel . I think i may have seen such products on sale , but they were maybe 5% vegetable based . Is it possible to buy 100% ? Is it any different to straight veg oil ?
Ok -sceptical hat on here - am glad that there is a fuel substitute , and that it's better than 'normal' diesel , but where are we going to grow it ?
Sorry , i know that's an easy pop ,but .....
(Should i be concerned by the 'filthy carbon deposits' that are in my fuel tank ? )
Click to expand...

Hi there

What I regard as Biodiesel is an alternative fuel that has been produced from the transesterifaction of Rape Seed oil (Canola Oil).

The Transesterification process is the reaction of a triglyceride (fat/oil) with an alcohol to form esters and glycerol. A triglyceride has a glycerine molecule as its base with three long chain fatty acids attached. The characteristics of the fat are determined by the nature of the fatty acids attached to the glycerine. The nature of the fatty acids can in turn affect the characteristics of the biodiesel. During the esterification process, the triglyceride is reacted with alcohol in the presence of a catalyst, usually a strong alkaline like sodium hydroxide. The alcohol reacts with the fatty acids to form the mono-alkyl ester, or biodiesel and crude glycerol. In most production methanol or ethanol is the alcohol used (methanol produces methyl esters, ethanol produces ethyl esters) and is base catalysed by either potassium or sodium hydroxide. Potassium hydroxide has been found to be more suitable for the ethyl ester biodiesel production, either base can be used for the methyl ester. A common product of the transesterification process is Rape Methyl Ester (RME) produced from raw rapeseed oil reacted with methanol.

The products of the reaction are the biodiesel itself and glycerol.

A successful transesterification reaction is signified by the separation of the ester and glycerol layers after the reaction time. The heavier, co-product, glycerol settles out and may be sold as it is or it may be purified for use in other industries, e.g. the pharmaceutical, cosmetics etc.


The engine combustion benefits of the transesterification of the oil are:
  • Lowered viscosity
  • Complete removal of the glycerides
  • Lowered boiling point
  • Lowered flash point
  • Lowered pour point
To produce Biodiesel a manufacturing plant is required and the above process is carried out the processing plants look similar to those used in the conventional oil/fuel manufacturers.

Where some people get confused is through the use of vegetable oil mixed with standard diesel or simply using Vegetable oil neat into your diesel engine - what's called SVO- this is NOT Biodiesel

Here's a description of SVO
Straight vegetable oil (SVO) can be used directly as a fossil diesel substitute however using this fuel can lead to some fairly serious engine problems. Due to its relatively high viscosity SVO leads to poor atomisation of the fuel, incomplete combustion, coking of the fuel injectors, ring carbonisation, and accumulation of fuel in the lubricating oil.

SVO is simply going along to your nearest super store and purchasing a litre bottle of cooking oil or someone buying or collect used chip shop oil and using a wire gause filter to filter out the bits of food and use this straight into their car or truck. You would only ever do this if you didn't value your vehicle.

So you can see Biodiesel is completely different to SVO.

You can buy 100% Biodiesel (I shall check where and update here)

At the moment, most Biodiesel production in the UK is made from waste vegetable oil that's collected from restaurants and chip shops, it's transoprted then to a Biodiesel manufacturer who carries out the transesterification process of the oil. In other countries, rape seed is grown specifically for Biodiesel production and processed to produce Biodiesel.

I know of some research work carried out in Wales that was looking at the commercial aspects of growing rape seed for the UK Biodiesel - it was nt commercially viable given then the lower fossil diesel prices. However with todays high prices for fossil diesel it may now make commercial sense.

Some people will argue that Biodiesel is taking oil out of the food chain and this is wrong - my own view is that rape seed oil or canola oil as it is sometimes called - has been proven to cause blindness in some people - the transfatty acids become trapped behind the eye and pinches on the optic nerve - causing blindness - there are several articles on this on the internet and a simple google of this will show you the medical research work on this.
So I'm all for using as much canola oil as possible in the production of Biodiesel

Last point - Should i be concerned by the 'filthy carbon deposits' that are in my fuel tank ? Unless you are going to use Biodiesel - it's not an issue - normally these products are fine enough to pass through your fuel filter and end up as smoke (soot or particulate matter) out of the exhaust pipe - however recent research has shown that busy roads and streets that have heavy traffic do suffer form what they call cancerogenic PM10 and PM25 - PM = Particulate Matter and 10, 25 are the micro size - these are being blamed on lung cancers etc - so it does become a long term issue. When you introduce Biodiesel it cleans the fossil fuel, fuel tank and fuel lines and thickens these particulates so they block the fuel filter - hence once you start using Biodiesel you need to monitor your fuel filter.

Hope the above helps - you may want to look at the following web site for more info on Biodiesel and belends of Biodiesel: http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/44833.pdf

I'm of for dinner now - back on tmw.
Cheers
 
Last edited by a moderator:
hi there no im very interested like the carbon deposits if there is in my tank how long before that is washed out its just that ive been running b100 and i have exprinced some loss of power with bio diesel is that normal or should the engine regain power the engine its self is in good condition i understand that bio diesel is never going to be like derv.
also what could be the long term damage too my engine if any or will it benifit from running bio diesel i get some power and it comes and goes ive been mixing the bio 50/50 just while it gets used to the change in fuel but since reading your information ive added some more bio in to my tank.
its just the way that the prices are going here i just want to make sure that i get it right i have found a good trust worthy supplier of bio diesel and ive been using quite alot due to my disco drinking the bio diesel and it seems to be settling down to a steady rate off use and not drinking fuel as much as what it has been doing
 
i have allready bought one acre of forest to stop the loggers need i buy more to stop the rapers.Has any long term studies been done on the amount of land required if the world goes barmy on it.
Lots of interesting imfo there thanks .but have seen gas come and go twice and various other things like the chip fat.All of those have there problems lower calorific value is one does this apply to bio.My fear is when you call something Bio its sounds like its good for the enviroment and i think its to early for all the answers to have cropped up yet.Not being negative but old git cautious,
CW.
 
i went onto bio diesel just because its cheap and my disco has been running cleaner and quiter and better then svo and drev
 
micheal said:
hi there no im very interested like the carbon deposits if there is in my tank how long before that is washed out its just that ive been running b100 and i have exprinced some loss of power with bio diesel is that normal or should the engine regain power the engine its self is in good condition i understand that bio diesel is never going to be like derv.
also what could be the long term damage too my engine if any or will it benifit from running bio diesel i get some power and it comes and goes ive been mixing the bio 50/50 just while it gets used to the change in fuel but since reading your information ive added some more bio in to my tank.
its just the way that the prices are going here i just want to make sure that i get it right i have found a good trust worthy supplier of bio diesel and ive been using quite alot due to my disco drinking the bio diesel and it seems to be settling down to a steady rate off use and not drinking fuel as much as what it has been doing
Click to expand...

Hi Michael

The main reason that most business use Biodiesel is to reduce carbon emissions and to reduce the reliance on fossil diesel. The benefits of Biodiesel are numerous and I can list if required, however using vegetable oil from restaurants and chip shops has the benefit of both being recycled and renewable, with reduced smoke (soot), it's biodegradable and reduces greenhouse gases - so it ticks several boxes.

So to your concerns
Now that you have been using Biodiesel I suggest the following:

I would suggest that if you haven't already done so - replace your fuel filter. At your next vehicle service, have the fuel injectors checked and cleaned. This should give you confidence that the fuel lines are clear - however you will need to regularly check the fuel filter.

On the potential long term damage to your vehicle engine through the use of Biodiesel, from long term use research work and real world use, I have only seen positive reports on the use of Biodiesel.
More than 100 Biodiesel demonstrations, with over 10 million road miles in trucks, have confirmed the performance benefits of this fuel additive for emissions and mechanical lubricity. No adverse durability or engine wear problems were found; in fact, in road tests with heavy duty truck engines, engine wear was significantly decreased after running 100,000 miles on blends of Biodiesel (University of Idaho studies)

Lubricity Properties
Biodiesel has been studied extensively in Europe and the U.S. for its effect on long term engine wear, particularly with respect to those components normally lubricated by the fuel itself. Fuel pumps and injector pumps depend on the operating fuel for lubrication of moving parts and shaft bearings. Initial work on the lubricity of Biodiesel, performed by Mark-IV Group and the Southwest Research Institute in 1994, established a clear advantage to blending Biodiesel with petrodiesel to achieve superior lubrication.
Lubricity properties are measured at the Southwest Research Institute (SWRI) by a "Ball On Cylinder Lubricity Evaluator" (BOCLE) machine to measure metal to metal hydrodynamic wear simulating rotating shafts and bearings. A static steel ball is loaded onto the edge of a rotating disc and the diameter of the subsequent scar on the ball is measured (similar reciprocating machines exist in Europe to measure scar on a steel ball, and newer versions have been developed in America to improve lubricity measurements). The BOCLE test does not measure adhesive friction wear.
Tests run by Exxon showed that, compared to reference diesel fuel in 1993, a 20% blend of Biodiesel had significant, quantifiable improvements in reducing wear (193 micron scar for B-20 vs. 492 micron scar for petrodiesel) and friction (0.13 micron scar for B-20 vs. 0.24 micron for petrodiesel) while improving film coating ability of the blend (93% film with the B-20 vs. 32% film with the petrodiesel). The B-20 blend compared favorably for lubricity results against Exxon's own lubricity additive.
The SWRI results for the BOCLE tests confirmed the earlier Exxon study results. Low sulfur, low aromatic ("CARB") diesel was compared to various blends of Biodiesel (soy methyl esters). Data were presented in values of grams of weight added to the apparatus before failure of the fuel to adequately lubricate the metal. The higher the weight the ball could support, the better the lubricity of the fuel. Neat petrodiesel (low aromatic CARB) had a BOCLE result of 3,500 grams, whereas the neat Biodiesel had a BOCLE result almost twice as high at 6,100 grams. The B-20 blend had a BOCLE result of 4,100 grams, close to the value for pre-1993 (high sulfur, high aromatic) petrodiesel fuel. In concentrations below 5%, the Biodiesel had no measurable effect on the lubricity of petrodiesel.
Follow up BOCLE studies at SWRI in 1996 concluded that Biodiesel methyl esters had even better lubricity properties than previously reported. The Biodiesel (RME) had a BOCLE value of 7,000 grams vs. 4,250 for low sulfur diesel (not CARB diesel), and the B-20 blend had a BOCLE value of 4,600 grams. Scar wear diameters were also encouraging, with a 405 micron scar reported for petrodiesel vs. a 190 micron friction scar for the B-20 blend.
Subsequent field studies on light duty truck engines (5.9L Cummins diesel at the University of Idaho) have corroborated these results by finding an "absence of wear" and friction scars on engines broken down for inspection after a 100,000 mile road test running on 28% Biodiesel. In a University of Idaho durability test (1,000 hour tests on small diesel engines), it was found that methyl ester Biodiesel was equivalent to no. 2 diesel on the basis of long term engine performance and wear. The primary factors evaluated in that study were engine brake power and torque, injector tip coking (carbon deposition), and engine component wear based on oil analysis.
In house monitoring over the past 5 years of our "Biofuel Test Vehicles" (a Mercedes Benz 300TD diesel station wagon and a 1985 BMW 524-Diesel) at CytoCulture has shown no evidence of unusual wear or polymerization of engine crankcase oil (analysis performed by Herguth Laboratories, Vallejo, CA) after more than 40,000 miles of operation on 30-100% blends with Biodiesel.

Chevron - produced a report some years ago that made reference to issues of Biodiesel and sump oil thinning, I will try and lay my hands on provide a link here.

On the loss of power,

Power Differences
Studies conducted in the U.S. and Europe generally indicate that blends of Biodiesel and petrodiesel result in small decreases in overall power output of engines. Only two studies have been conducted with marine engines, one by a German scientist (Dr. Claus Breuer) at the Technical University in Hannover (Ph.D. thesis in 1994) and the other by Alvin Womac's group at the Department of Agricultural Engineering at the University of Tennessee. The German study involved a Deutz 4 cylinder marine diesel engine (direct injection) found on fishing boats in Europe and the Tennessee study evaluated a 110 HP Volvo marine diesel engine, also used in work boats and fishing boats. Volvo also makes smaller single and double cylinder diesel engines for recreational sailboats.
The German study confirmed similar results obtained by Mercedes Benz showing that the maximal torque curve for an engine under load remains essentially unchanged for rapeseed methyl esters relative to pure petrodiesel. Despite the lower volumetric heating value and the consequent lower maximum power output of Biodiesel, the practical results are roughly the same. At a 20% blend, there would probably be no noticeable difference in power output. Good performance in fuel combustion with Biodiesel and its blends resulted in a smooth running engine.
In the Volvo marine diesel engine study in Tennessee (110-HP, 2.39 L, 4-cylinder, direct injection engine), a tractor dynamometer was used to measure power outputs under selected loads through an engine-mounted reverse drive gear. Exhaust emissions were also tested along with fuel consumption tests under various loads. The conclusions of these tests were that power produced from 100% soy methyl ester Biodiesel was from 2 to 7 percent less than produced from petrodiesel, depending on the load-speed point. However, at or near maximum throttle (3,800 rpm), the two fuels performed the same. Interestingly, at the lowest engine speed (1855 rpm) at full throttle under heavier load, there was a 13% increase in power with Biodiesel as compared to petrodiesel.
The Tennessee study indicated that using 100% Biodiesel in marine direct-injection diesel engines, with design and construction similar to the Volvo test engine, could be recommended without any significant, noticeable differences in operation, power performance and fuel usage.
In the 1998 study at the Southwest Research Institute on Biodiesel effects on diesel engine performance, engine power in the 1997 Cummings truck engine operating on the B-20 blend was at 98.5% of the power attained with low sulfur No. 2 diesel. At 100% Biodiesel, the engine generated 92% of the power. For a Detroit Diesel truck engine (1997), the power was 98% with the B-20 and 92% with the neat Biodiesel.


I am sure that once you have changed the fuel filter and had the injectors checked - you will see an improvement and a consistent performance.


Hope the above helps
Cheers
 
catweazle said:
i have allready bought one acre of forest to stop the loggers need i buy more to stop the rapers.Has any long term studies been done on the amount of land required if the world goes barmy on it.
Lots of interesting imfo there thanks .but have seen gas come and go twice and various other things like the chip fat.All of those have there problems lower calorific value is one does this apply to bio.My fear is when you call something Bio its sounds like its good for the enviroment and i think its to early for all the answers to have cropped up yet.Not being negative but old git cautious,
CW.
Click to expand...

Hi CW
Please do not compare Biodiesel with Straight vegetable oil (SVO) "Chip Fat" as these are two completely different products. I completely agree with you that if you use Straight vegetable oil (SVO) "chip fat" there is a loss of performance.
You may be interested to know that Biodiesel is not new it's been around for some considerable time and has passed numerous checks that have satisfied both Civilian and Military authorities

On the land issue and production side of Biodiesel - this is an issue that has seen the deforestation of the Amazon to grow soy seed for the North American alternative fuels market so yes I agree it is a problem. This is why in the UK most sources of Biodiesel are based on recycling used vegetable oil from restaurants and chip shops - you then process this via the Transesterification process to produce Biodiesel
Cheers
 
catweasel, buy as much as you can!!
Jean Pain, genius French gardener invented a method of composting woodland brash and trash to produce not just a very good natural fertilizer, but also at the same time, hot water and most important of all, METHANE!!
Tried to attach something for you,but webbie says too large!
Like enough, took me over 2 years to find the dam thing! :)
Mike.
 
just to get this stright what would be the best running a 50/50 mix of derv and bio or a 100% bio diesel as i have heard that many stories about what you have to do on the bio diesel
 
cadfael said:
catweasel, buy as much as you can!!
Jean Pain, genius French gardener invented a method of composting woodland brash and trash to produce not just a very good natural fertilizer, but also at the same time, hot water and most important of all, METHANE!!
Tried to attach something for you,but webbie says too large!
Like enough, took me over 2 years to find the dam thing! :)
Mike.
Click to expand...
AND MUSHROOMS.Magic Cheers CW.
 
With regard to the changing of the fuel filters, the part number for the Mann Filter which is built for Bio (EN14214) is WK842/2. They are readily available and usually on eBay for about a fiver.

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=wk842/2&_sacat=See-All-Categories

To re-emphasise, these filters are built to work with bio.

These are suitable for the 300tdi, and the Mann website gives more info.

http://www.mann-hummel.com/mf_prodk...ktlg_03_sFrNo_alt=8422&ktlg_03_sFrNo=AEU2147L

Hope this helps,

Chris.

http://sites.google.com/site/ukwvobiodiesel/home
 
i couldnt have said it better myself chris the one that i have on my disco has done 750 miles on svo and around 600 miles on bo and its still going strong
 
Hi all

after some advice please? we have decided to try and go bio 100 and are looking to purchase a 2005 RANGE ROVER 3.0 Td6 - has anyone run one of these on B100? any advice either way would be appreciated. we are really keen to run our next vehicle as environmentally friendly as possible. we are purposely looking to buy used instead of the usual leasing so that we have more options.

many thanks
 
Firstly forgive me if I repeat anything that has already been written.
Secondly how about making your own Biodiesel. I am sure there is plenty of chippies who would gladly give you their used vegetable oil. This why it is cheap.
I used to make my own Biodiesel. I ran a Range Rover with the 300TDI engine and it ran with no problems at all. the only serious problem I had were due to the Diesel pump rubbers. As has been mentioned rubber and Methyesters don't get on too well after 4 years (which is how long I had been using biodiesel before the main fuel pump oil seal started to leak). I had to overhaul the pump, changing the rubbers to a synthetic rubber.
Filters yes is another problem, especially when introducing the engine and fuel system to the fuel as, as has been mentioned, biodiesel is a solvent and cleans very well. It cleans the tank very well and also my diesel pump mechanic commented how clean parts are after using this fuel.
If anyone is interested in making their own I have a link to a thread in my signature with some pictures describing how I used to make it.
I am not sure about in the UK how readily available methanol is but the fuel can easily be made in a garage.
 
Back
Top Bottom