TD5 - Dying Fuel Pump?????

[jkelly]

Hi all,
I need help / advice with my 2000 TD5 90.

The car has a Tunit box on it and when it gets to about 70mph the car seems to judder, as though running out of diesel, after a while the juddering dies down and the car will proceed to 80mph+.

I removed the Tunit and nothing seemed to be amiss so I quickly thought it was the Tunit Box.

I went to Bell Auto Services and they re-mapped my ECU to try and eliminate the Tunit Box...and they did, the re-mapping also produced the same problem.

Reverting the car to stock ECU with NO Tunit Box I went for an extended drive to see if I could feel the juddering. Whilst its not nearly as apparent I am sure I can feel it.

So the question really is whats the problem?!? I have been told that the fuel pumps are a common cause of failure on the TD5 and TD4 as they loose the ability to supply fuel at a constant pressure.

Also, what should the top speed of a stock TD5 90 be? Yesterday, mine seemed reluctant to go beyond 75mph, which I suspect is about 15mph - 20mph too slow.

Thanks
Jon

 

[DavejDavies]

Hi all,
I need help / advice with my 2000 TD5 90.

The car has a Tunit box on it and when it gets to about 70mph the car seems to judder, as though running out of diesel, after a while the juddering dies down and the car will proceed to 80mph+.

I removed the Tunit and nothing seemed to be amiss so I quickly thought it was the Tunit Box.

I went to Bell Auto Services and they re-mapped my ECU to try and eliminate the Tunit Box...and they did, the re-mapping also produced the same problem.

Reverting the car to stock ECU with NO Tunit Box I went for an extended drive to see if I could feel the juddering. Whilst its not nearly as apparent I am sure I can feel it.

So the question really is whats the problem?!? I have been told that the fuel pumps are a common cause of failure on the TD5 and TD4 as they loose the ability to supply fuel at a constant pressure.

Also, what should the top speed of a stock TD5 90 be? Yesterday, mine seemed reluctant to go beyond 75mph, which I suspect is about 15mph - 20mph too slow.

Thanks
Jon

My fuel pump went a couple of months ago, was whining like mad before it went though - can't say I noticed any drop in performance, been told it will run without the pump as the injectors will suck the fuel from the tank - no idea if this is true

Regards speed, my 90TD5 truck cab will do 90 on a private road

Check for the oil in the loom and around the ECU as these are all TD5 judder causes

 

[TEMPL4R]

The pump is a high and low pressure one, the injectors are camshaft powered to get the very high pressure. They won't work without the tank pump.

That is my complete knowledge of the system, JONV8 will put us right on the rest.

Chris

 

[Jon v8]

Could be a failing pump,but this usually causes misfire issues at any load/speed - and also at odd times.
I would look at the wastegate operating arm - these happily sieze up and allow overboost situations,the storm engine ecu will cut fuelling to limit output.This can show as the performance dropping off or as an apparent misfire - on Td5 disco's with electronic control of the wastegate it can show as the "kangaroo" fuel with constant surging as the engine overboosts then dies,then overboosts etc.
Most Td5's can be made to overboost if you drive them hard enough - even if you dont notice it the ecu will store some faults.Thing is the turbo can produce full boost and start needing the wastegate at 2000-2100 rpm under full load.

 

[jkelly]

Most Td5's can be made to overboost if you drive them hard enough - even if you dont notice it the ecu will store some faults.Thing is the turbo can produce full boost and start needing the wastegate at 2000-2100 rpm under full load.

On Saturday I had Rovacomm plugged in for a short while whilst driving and the only faults that came up where EGR short circuit (EGR Valve is removed), something about gearbox, something about ABS (thats not installed) and a couple of other wiered and non-related things. During this driving time the juddering was apparent for a few seconds but nothing showed up in the ECU??

 

[jkelly]

I would look at the wastegate operating arm

Sorry to be a div, but can you describe where this is and how much travel there should be on it. Should that travel be free?

Thanks
Jon

 

[tomb]

I've had the exact same problem for the last 2 years !!! Checked everything at dealers diagnostics but nothing showing.

Injectors checked, wastegate , fuel regulator , ECU changed for a test (which showed same problem). EGR is removed. Rev counter fitted so problem starts just below 3,000 rpm with very little power available if you try to keep reving it.

The reply regarding air in fuel system sounds about right as mine struggles to start cleanly in the morning (air lock somewhere) but starts fine after the morning start.

If there is a slight leak at the fuel filter how can i test for air getting in as opposed to fuel leaking out?

Any recommendations welcome as i've had enough and thinking of fitting V8.

 

[jkelly]

I've had the exact same problem for the last 2 years !!! .

Glad to know I'm not the only one! Is yours chipped / re-mapped?
At the moment I can live with the minor juddering when in stock format, but of course the lack of power is a complete pain in the ar5e.

Ive just found out the cost of new injectors and pump... If I need to replace these the mrs will not be happy!!!

Jon

 

[tomb]

Yes its got the PSI piggy back module with scorpion bigger intercooler. Thing is it pull great from low and midrange but when the revs approach 2,600-2,700rpm juddering or vibration starts with lack of power.

So does anyone have any recommendations regarding checking fuel line system for leaks???

 

[jkelly]

Im sure that if the fuel system had a leak then fuel would vbe pushed out, not air sucked in. Of course, if someone can prove me wrong...

Ive also spoke to teh local LR garage today, they tell me that fuel pumps, by enlarge, either work or dont work. They have replaced 4 on Defender TD5's in the last 3 weeks, all of them just dont work.

The same garage also told me to check the injector loom, despite having no oil on the red plug as it could be in its early stages of working its way to the plug... Does anyone know how to check for oil before it gets to the red plug???? Having said that, if tomb's been suffering for 2 years his plug should be oily buy now and I suspect its not.

I know my ECU isnt at fault because ive tested with a second known good unit, so either its not getting enough diesel (or air) or it is getting the diesel, just at the wrong time. In order to rule this last bit out, is there a mechanical component to the TD5 injector that could wear out / get tired (6 years old, 33000 miles)? If not then it could still be the injector loom???

Who knows where to start!
Jon

 

[DavejDavies]

So does anyone have any recommendations regarding checking fuel line system for leaks???

Fuel line from my new fuel pump has started to leak when under pressure - saw some staining from the top of the tank whilst cleaning mud off the underside

Garage said it had be jointed by someone before they renewed the pump - going to cut a hole in the rear load space next week and see whats going on Don't want to drop the tank so easier long term option ...

 

[TEMPL4R]

Ive just found out the cost of new injectors and pump... If I need to replace these the mrs will not be happy!!!

Jon

It is horrendous, isn't it. Our Customers have a great problem believeing us, so we give them Land Rovers number and let them ask.

Chris

 

[Jon v8]

Dont start panicing about the price of injectors - I have 5 good used ones in stock but I dont think you need them.Has anyone checked the fuel pressure yet.It runs at a constant 60psi,it can be measured at the fuel rail by screwing a pressure gauge into the fuel temp sensor hole.Sorry but the electric pump can die in an intermittent way,fine one minute,lack of power/misfires next minute.
Trouble is people say "they never do that" - but sometimes out of the ordinary problems happen.Thats what keeps my interest in my work,the other thing to say is that from a diagnostic point of view,not much does show up on a td5 Ecu in the way of fault codes that are accurate - in comparison to a td4 or td6.Even live data on a td5 can look fine unless you know exactly what to look for - an oscilliscope will give much better results.Remember too that td5 engine problems are well documented and people rant on about how bad they are but lots of them run without problems for a lot of miles - my father has had 3 td5 90's since 1999 and not had a single engine problem.A couple of fuel caps and a sqeaking spigot bearing are all the trouble he has had.

 

[Jon v8]

Forgot to say,to check the wastegate - disconnect the arm from the lever and make sure the arm can move freely about 20-30 degrees from the closed,(rest) position.If it doesnt then wd40 may be enough to get it moving again.If it wont then you could be in trouble,it is possible to repair it,it is a bit of an "agricultural" job - cut your way in,weld your way out.But it does work and saves buying another turbo.

 

[jkelly]

Forgot to say,to check the wastegate - disconnect the arm from the lever and make sure the arm can move freely about 20-30 degrees from the closed,(rest) position.If it doesnt then wd40 may be enough to get it moving again.If it wont then you could be in trouble,it is possible to repair it,it is a bit of an "agricultural" job - cut your way in,weld your way out.But it does work and saves buying another turbo.

Jon,
Im assuming that its the "wastgate valve linkage" (Item Number 4 on the attached) that needs to be unscrewed from the vaccum housing and make sure that moves freely. Without looking at it I cant remember how it all fits together, is it possible to disconnect it and then re-connect so that its in the same place as it was when it goes back together or will I need to "set it up" again?

Thanks
Jon

 

[jkelly]

Dont start panicing about the price of injectors - I have 5 good used ones in stock but I dont think you need them.Has anyone checked the fuel pressure yet.It runs at a constant 60psi,it can be measured at the fuel rail by screwing a pressure gauge into the fuel temp sensor hole.Sorry but the electric pump can die in an intermittent way,fine one minute,lack of power/misfires next minute.
Trouble is people say "they never do that" - but sometimes out of the ordinary problems happen.Thats what keeps my interest in my work,the other thing to say is that from a diagnostic point of view,not much does show up on a td5 Ecu in the way of fault codes that are accurate - in comparison to a td4 or td6.Even live data on a td5 can look fine unless you know exactly what to look for - an oscilliscope will give much better results.Remember too that td5 engine problems are well documented and people rant on about how bad they are but lots of them run without problems for a lot of miles - my father has had 3 td5 90's since 1999 and not had a single engine problem.A couple of fuel caps and a sqeaking spigot bearing are all the trouble he has had.

Jon,
Many thanks for the details...
OK. Fuel Line pressure has not been tested. You say it should be 60psi at the rail, is there any published */- tolerances on that or should it be bang on 60psi?
Looking at the RAVE manual, I am presuming that I can unscrew the sensor (Number 4 on attached) and screw a pressure gauge in their?

 

[Jon v8]

Yep number 4 temp sensor is the place to screw a gauge into.Leave the sensor connected to the wires or you will log a fault as soon as you key on.The stated pressure is 4 bar ,58 psi - the ones I have checked have all been very close to it,unless the pump is failing.

 

[jkelly]

Could this be my problem (really hope so!!) ???

I have disconnected the plug that connects the injector loom to the loom running back to the ECU and the plug had some (not vast amounts) of oil on the female side of the plug. There was also more evidence of oil in the injector loom plug also. To try to quantify "some oil", it was just enough to be able to see a drop (maybe 5mm long and 2 or 3 mm wide) on my finger end.

Should this plug be bone dry or should I expect to find some oil in there??

Should I be looking to replace the injector loom? I believe they have been modified in the past to resolve this issue?

Thanks
Jon

 

[jkelly]

Re: TD5 - Dying Fuel Pump????? Update.

As per Jon_V8 suggested I have checked the wastegate actuator. Its not seized it moves back and forth merrily as the engine is revv'ed up and down.

I have also changed the injector loom and this hasn't made any difference.

After driving it more and paying more attention to everything I think that the engine is generally a bit lumpy when being driven (not necesserily hard). Along a straight, smooth road it feels a bit like the road has undulations in it. Very easy to miss until you tune yourself into the vehicle and consider everything. It only really shows as a definate problem at higher speeds, which is where the problem was first noted.

Unfortunately I have no rev counter so cant provide any info on the rev's when its at its worst (if there is any correlation).

Does anyone know of anyone around Hull / York / Scarborough thats sufficiently clued up on TD5's? That could / would be willing to confirm the fuel pump / pressure? Is this something that the local LR garage would do before suggesting fitting a new pump or would they just replace and bill me!?

Jon

 

[smonkey]

Jon,
Im assuming that its the "wastgate valve linkage" (Item Number 4 on the attached) that needs to be unscrewed from the vaccum housing and make sure that moves freely. Without looking at it I cant remember how it all fits together, is it possible to disconnect it and then re-connect so that its in the same place as it was when it goes back together or will I need to "set it up" again?

Thanks
Jon

I sprayed mine with wd40 and cycled it with the actuator still fitted, and it cured it.

I have 2 TD5's and think they are cracking engines, yes i've had snags disco fuel pump recently (74K miles) and the defender had the wastegate problem and needed a new injector harness before that(114k). Fuel pump hurt at £185 but the harness was only £35. I don't think that is bad for the mileages covered.