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TD5 Poor Starting - Running Out of Options!

ADBS65

ADBS65

Accelerating Away
I have a 2001 TD5 Defender 90 with 120k on the clock. Up until quite recently it started on the button hot or cold. It then started to struggle from cold but ok when warm. Now it won't start without long periods of cranking hot or cold, if you leave it for any period of time. (That said, if it is warm and you turn it off and immediately back on, it starts instantly) Once running it is sound and goes very well. I have swapped the fuel pump for a known good one, no difference. I have cleaned the harness plugs of oil contamination. I have fitted a new injector harness and replaced the injector washers, no difference. I have fitted a new MAF and air filter. I cannot find any fuel leaks, there is 3/4 of a tank of diesel and if you run the purge cycle, it doesn't do a lot of "gurgling" that would suggest air in the system. It has a had a full service in the last 250 miles and NO faults displayed on Nanocom and all systems etc are as per manufacturer settings.
I am running out of ideas. If the fuel regulator was faulty, then surely it would not run once started? Likewise if the fuel filter was blocked, then it wouldn't drive well? anyone has any ideas where to go next i would be grateful as it is costing me a tidy packet
Regards
Andy
 
Update..... I have been advised to fit a new air bleed valve into the filter head. I have done this and bled the system, but not much improvement. I did eventually get it started and runs better than ever, but the poor starting issue remains.
Can i ask what part the fuel regulator plays in the starting cycle? Could this be responsible? It is not leaking and once running, there are no issues, just looking at all aspects to try and resolve this.
Thanks
Andy
 
it regulates the fuel pressure going into the injectors. unlikely to be this. the air bleed valve is a common fault, but will cause a loud pump and gurgling as air cannot escape the system. have you tested the glow plugs. another test, do lots of cranking then remove the glow plugs and see if any are wet. if so, the injector could be leaking, loosing fuel pressure from the rail and causing it to not start. no5 injector can only be tested by moving it to a position where there is a glow plug.
 
Hi and thank you. I will give this a go and update accordingly as glow plugs are cheaper than regulators!. Any precautions when changing glow plugs? Access looks limited and they are very skinny :(
Regards
Andy
 
So, last night I thought i would see if she started and the engine fired virtually on the button! I tried again later and still ok. II will monitor this issue and still intend to replace the glow plugs to be on the safe side. However, it appears the air bleed valve was the problem. That said, its a Land Rover so no doubt it will not start the next time i try it!
Regards
Andy
 
And you won't be surprised to hear it didn't in fact it was worse! I have now bought a complete filter housing and new filter and fitted this, as mine was in a poor state, although the filter was brand new. Having bled the system it eventually started. Hot or cold, it doesn't want to start, although it is a little better when warm. When it is running, it is fantastic, really smooth and goes well. I have brimmed the tank and am going for a ride out tomorrow, including some gentle off roading. I will update you as to whether this fixs the problem. I am thinking fuel pump or regulator or both, if it doesn't.
In dispair
Andy
 
A friend's td5 disco did a similar thing, very poor starter but it wouldn't run at all eventually. It was the fuel pump in/on the tank. I'm not sure if it's the same set up for the defender.
We checked it by disconnecting the filter and turned on the ignition.
Worth a try?

Neil
 
So tried starting it today and it didn't want to fire up. Eventually started and ran well. But whenever i switched it off, she struggled to start, this is after an hour on the motorway so it is happening hot or cold. In the end i had to leave it running most of the day. I am now going to change the pump as i am thinking fuel supply/starvation is the issue. I understand that the fuel pump is in fact 2 pumps in 1, a low pressure and a high pressure. I am thinking that one of these is weak and not providing enough fuel / or at the necessary pressure to start the engine. However, once running the "good" pump can supply enough fuel at sufficient pressure for it to run. Ideally, i could do with pressure testing, but I haven't got a gauge etc to test this.
My other thought is the FPR however, if this was at fault, why does it run ok once started? No leaks etc and the car goes very well.
Thoughts please, as this is getting expensive
Thanks
Andy
 
so have you tried what i said earlier about cranking it over and if it wont start then pulling the glow plugs out to see if any are wet with diesel, indicating a leaking injector. if there isnt the right pressure in the fuel rail then she wont start. the in tank pump could be to blame, pull it out, see if the filter on it is blocked, the fpr again could be to blame, as could a leaking injector. but then it could also be a crank sensor fault.
 
Thanks for the update. I will be pulling the glow plugs but am reluctant to do so as i hear they are prone to breaking off and that would need the head off, which isn't an option at the moment. Plus the issue is now as bad hot or cold, which would eliminate a leaky injector(s) especially as she runs great once started. I think your "pressure in the fuel rail" suggestion is more likely. My Volvo has broken down and i limped it to my local garage today. While there I mentioned my LR woes and he reckons FPR is likely to have failed and i am not getting the correct pressure to enable it to start, hot or cold. I listened around the engine bay tonight while running a purge cycle and could clearly hear fuel "rushing" through the cooler next to the FPR which I have not heard before. I an pulling the pump and checking this to see if its blocked first. If ok will replace the FPR or recon it with a kit. Crank sensor not showing any faults on diagnostics so won't mess with this yet.
Thanks again for the advice
Andy
 
ADBS65 said:
Thanks for the update. I will be pulling the glow plugs but am reluctant to do so as i hear they are prone to breaking off and that would need the head off, which isn't an option at the moment. Plus the issue is now as bad hot or cold, which would eliminate a leaky injector(s) especially as she runs great once started. I think your "pressure in the fuel rail" suggestion is more likely. My Volvo has broken down and i limped it to my local garage today. While there I mentioned my LR woes and he reckons FPR is likely to have failed and i am not getting the correct pressure to enable it to start, hot or cold. I listened around the engine bay tonight while running a purge cycle and could clearly hear fuel "rushing" through the cooler next to the FPR which I have not heard before. I an pulling the pump and checking this to see if its blocked first. If ok will replace the FPR or recon it with a kit. Crank sensor not showing any faults on diagnostics so won't mess with this yet.
Thanks again for the advice
Andy
Click to expand...

I would go with Zollaf suggestion and pull the glow plugs, normally fuel pressure regulators leak to the outside when they are past it. Easy to swap if your happy to spend the money.
The comment on crank sensor, it has been known for starter motor brushes being worn and arcing to cause interference with the crank sensor signal. This would normally show up a fault along the lines of Crank Sensor noisy. For the sake of trying bearing in mind it costs nothing to do....roll it down a hill and bump start it
 
Probably changed abot 10 FPR's on these engines, and the only reason they were ever change dis because they were dripping diesel externally, never any running issues and certainly no effecting starting. If it were me, the next time its failing to start, I would disconnect the fuel pipe from the FPR (its a push fit jobby) and turn the ignition on, if fuel pours out then its most likely nothing to do with the pump in the tank, the fpr or any fuel lines in between.

Lazy way to check if its a rail pressure problem would be to spray some easy start into the intake, if it fires up and then continues too run happily under its own steam its almost certainly rail pressure/injector related, if it fires then refuses too continue its probably crank sensor or something electrical playing up. Well thats what I would be doing if it were mine and I wasnt in the workshop.

If I was in work I would just check the readings from the ecu or put a scope on the fuel rail and see whats going on
 
Thanks everybody for the updates as it gives me start points for the weekend. I have purchased a fuel pressure tester to establish what fuel pressure i am geting from the pump and after the FPR. Other posts and Youtube vids show around 7 bar from the ump and 4 bar when measured at the FPR teeing into the temp sender aperture. Once i have got some figures i will go from there. If low pressure from pump then this points to pump failure and i will replace. If pump pressure good but at FPR pressure not at or above 4 bar i will use a repair kit to fix this. That said, the FPR looks new so will try the tow start to elimate or confirm the starter motor theory. Then i will remove and swap the glow plugs for new ones. I assume that if they are wet this points to faulty injectors and or glow plugs? The injectors are showing as ok when running on diagnostics though and car is smooth.
I will update with my findings
thanks sgain
Andy
 
Forgot to mention last night i removed the brand new air bleed valve from the new filter housing as i have read that you should not be able to blow through it. I checked and i could quite easily! I then checked the brand new air bleed valve i bought "stand-alone" last week and i can blow through this as well! I then checked the original LR one i replaced and I couldn't blow through this I have read that the LR genuine parts air bleed valves have fixed the problem as after market alternatives are crap. I replaced the "new" ABV with the LR one and purged the system, the LR started immediately. However i switched off and it took lots of cranking to get a restart. I ran a number of purge cycles but no change. However, I suggest thst i can eliminate this as the problem!
thanks
Andy
 
ADBS65 said:
Thanks everybody for the updates as it gives me start points for the weekend. I have purchased a fuel pressure tester to establish what fuel pressure i am geting from the pump and after the FPR. Other posts and Youtube vids show around 7 bar from the ump and 4 bar when measured at the FPR teeing into the temp sender aperture. Once i have got some figures i will go from there. If low pressure from pump then this points to pump failure and i will replace. If pump pressure good but at FPR pressure not at or above 4 bar i will use a repair kit to fix this. That said, the FPR looks new so will try the tow start to elimate or confirm the starter motor theory. Then i will remove and swap the glow plugs for new ones. I assume that if they are wet this points to faulty injectors and or glow plugs? The injectors are showing as ok when running on diagnostics though and car is smooth.
I will update with my findings
thanks sgain
Andy
Click to expand...

4 bars is the regulated pressure so connect your gauge and start cranking. The pressure shouldn't drop.
I don't know exactly how you would go about it but if you can...connect a length of clear plastic tube in the return pipe so you can check for air bubbles.
If theres no air and the fuel pressure is good then you look to the control system
 
Ok, so i have replaced the in line air bleed valve with a genuine Land Rover item this made no difference although it was harder to blow through than the Britpart ones. I did this just to eliminate this as a problem as at £19 it was cheap enough.

I have cleaned the crank position sensor and plug, as this was coated in oil (not diesel) it shows no faults through diagnostics.

I have tried the tow start to eliminate or confirm the starter motor magnetic field theory. Having purged the system just to be sure i had no air in it, i had a tow start. It took about 3 or 4 car lengths to get it running. I repeated this process and it did start over a shorter towed distance, but was never on the button so to speak. I don't think the starter is at fault.

I then connected a pressure gauge to the temp sender outlet on the FPR and got the following....

1. When purging the system after connecting the gauge i get a steady 4 bar when the pump is running and can hear fuel gushing through the system. However, when the pump cuts out, the pressure drops to 0.75 bar in less than 1 second. As soon as the pump starts a new cycle, it goes straight back to 4 bar.
2. Once the purge cycle phase is complete with ignition still on i get around 0.75 bar. If i turn the ignition off and back on it goes back to 4 bar, until the pump shuts down, pressure dropping straight back to 0.75 bar.
3. With the gauge still connected, i crank the engine and the pressure drops to 1.5 bar before the gauge fluctuates wildly between 1.5 to a max of 3 bar. The LR does not start, regardless of cranking time, although occasionally it try's.

Based on comments above, i think the fuel pump has failed?

Thoughts please guys before i blow £230 on a new VDO pump!

Thanks
Andy
 
ADBS65 said:
Ok, so i have replaced the in line air bleed valve with a genuine Land Rover item this made no difference although it was harder to blow through than the Britpart ones. I did this just to eliminate this as a problem as at £19 it was cheap enough.

I have cleaned the crank position sensor and plug, as this was coated in oil (not diesel) it shows no faults through diagnostics.

I have tried the tow start to eliminate or confirm the starter motor magnetic field theory. Having purged the system just to be sure i had no air in it, i had a tow start. It took about 3 or 4 car lengths to get it running. I repeated this process and it did start over a shorter towed distance, but was never on the button so to speak. I don't think the starter is at fault.

I then connected a pressure gauge to the temp sender outlet on the FPR and got the following....

1. When purging the system after connecting the gauge i get a steady 4 bar when the pump is running and can hear fuel gushing through the system. However, when the pump cuts out, the pressure drops to 0.75 bar in less than 1 second. As soon as the pump starts a new cycle, it goes straight back to 4 bar.
2. Once the purge cycle phase is complete with ignition still on i get around 0.75 bar. If i turn the ignition off and back on it goes back to 4 bar, until the pump shuts down, pressure dropping straight back to 0.75 bar.
3. With the gauge still connected, i crank the engine and the pressure drops to 1.5 bar before the gauge fluctuates wildly between 1.5 to a max of 3 bar. The LR does not start, regardless of cranking time, although occasionally it try's.

Based on comments above, i think the fuel pump has failed?

Thoughts please guys before i blow £230 on a new VDO pump!

Thanks
Andy
Click to expand...


If its never had a replacement pump I'm going to say order a new one. It's odd though.
Check the pick up strainer on the pump and electrical supply before fitting the new one. If your going to pull it out have a new one ready ready to fit. Personally I would just renew for piece of mind.
There is an outer strainer and if you unclip that you will find an inner strainer on the pump itself. All worth checking. You have demonstrated that your issue is fuel pressure. If it turns out to not be the pump then look back at injectors leaking up past the copper washers. The rapid pressure drop could be because there is air in the fuel gallery
 
I have watched a YouTube video that shows 1 bar with ignition on which the mechanic condems as scrap and then gets fluctuating 5-7 bar pressure when he fits a new pump. He doesn't get the 4 bar purge pressure i get although maybe he didn't test that as he just bled the system. The pump is OE at 125k miles so i think you are correct. I will pull my pump and check the strainers as suggested. Fortunately i have a fully removable rear floor so fairly easy access. I think a new pump is the obvious next step, unless the strainers are blocked. As others state a VDO pump is the way to go.
Thanks again for your advice
Andy
 
Ok, so i got hold of another pump, not brand new but as good as. I did notice though that when you turn ignition on and BEFORE I crank the needle shoots straight to 4 bar. Not gradual or smooth, just straight to 4 bar. (same for both pumps) The car still wouldn't start and when cranking i got a pressure drop to 1.5 bar fluctuating then to 3 and occasionally 4 bar, same as other pump.
I then tapped in to the fuel pipe that enters the FPR. With ignition on the needle goes straight past 7 bar (gauge limit) until the needle hits the stop pin. Best guess maybe 9 bar. Reconnected fuel line and tapped back into temp sender on FPR. Ran a purge and she eventually started. The gauge showed 4 bar +/- 0.5 and maintained this even when i revved the engine. I switched off and it struggled to restart, although warm. When cranking same pressure drop but once running maintains a steady 4 bar.
All the Youtube vids related to TD5 fuel pressure show ignition on gauge climbs to 4 bar and no pressure loss when cranking or engine running.
Could i be experiencing a voltage drop as starter draws current and pump doesn't get full juice from battery? Or is my FPR knacked?
Advice please guys as a lot of head scratching going on here!
 
i have checked the "electrical power" supplied to the pump when ignition on and then cranking. With no cranking 13.5 volts but drops to 10/11 volts when i try to start her. I then tried a jump start from a 2 litre diesel car and she started! I have now bought a new relay and HD battery. I must say I didn't think it was a lazystarter/battery issue as it cranked ok IMO, however definitely could hear/tell the difference from jumpstart. Thanks again for support i am grateful.
 
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