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Diesel Engines HVO,
- Thread starter Coley
- Start date
HampshireHog
Trekker
Buy it , we’re all going to gang up and fight the hippies to keep our Landies & classic cars 
robwlondon
Posting Guru
I would avoid, it very bad for the environment and may well get banned. I ran a 300D Merc on SVO for over 100,000 miles when it was trendy and we could save the planet. I did a proper conversion and the Merc is the best engine - indirect, inline HP pump, engine oil lubed pump. I was part of the Goverment consultation in the 90's and even got some of my suggestions included. I stopped for a number of reasons, I could see there was slow but definite varnishing of all the engine parts, the bio fuels (I also ran bio diesel) are very aggressive to copper and most seals and fuel hoses. A set of fuel hoses usually lasted no more than 2 years. You have to go over to food grade nylon.
But what really made up my mind to go back to fossil fuels was this; when the whole bio-fuel thing started it was about CO and cutting emissions. That's all been trashed now. The bio-particulates are as bad (that's why they are trying to ban wood stoves). Governments are realising that bio-fuel puts land use for fuel in competition with food and food will always win so expect a ban on bio-derived fuels. Several countries have now done this. (Ignore the huge solar farms on arable land for now...) but perhaps the real killer has been that the only way to grow enough soya is to clear fell rain forest. When I began I was getting UK rape oil, then EU soya, then US soya, then US GM soya, then Brazilian GM soya. Then I said, "enough". I'm now doing more harm than good, I'm sustaining the industry that's clearing the rain forest and is worse than North Sea oil. I don't like filling up from UK oil, but I like it a lot more than a fuel that's sourced on illegal farms in Brazil and has a huge carbon footprint due to land clearance.
Like it or not crude oil is a natural product, its rotted peat bog, compressed for a few million years. you can make something very similar by taking plant material, processing it with a lot of energy and using hydrogen, but you have to use current land to produce the feed stock, fossil fuel did that a long time ago. Don't kid yourself that HVO is better for the environment.
But what really made up my mind to go back to fossil fuels was this; when the whole bio-fuel thing started it was about CO and cutting emissions. That's all been trashed now. The bio-particulates are as bad (that's why they are trying to ban wood stoves). Governments are realising that bio-fuel puts land use for fuel in competition with food and food will always win so expect a ban on bio-derived fuels. Several countries have now done this. (Ignore the huge solar farms on arable land for now...) but perhaps the real killer has been that the only way to grow enough soya is to clear fell rain forest. When I began I was getting UK rape oil, then EU soya, then US soya, then US GM soya, then Brazilian GM soya. Then I said, "enough". I'm now doing more harm than good, I'm sustaining the industry that's clearing the rain forest and is worse than North Sea oil. I don't like filling up from UK oil, but I like it a lot more than a fuel that's sourced on illegal farms in Brazil and has a huge carbon footprint due to land clearance.
Like it or not crude oil is a natural product, its rotted peat bog, compressed for a few million years. you can make something very similar by taking plant material, processing it with a lot of energy and using hydrogen, but you have to use current land to produce the feed stock, fossil fuel did that a long time ago. Don't kid yourself that HVO is better for the environment.
The fuel of the future will be hydrogen generated from renewables like wind and solar... put money on it.
HampshireHog
Trekker
Brilliant, how much should I send , is it the same P.O. Box that I sent my birth certificate and £100 to in South Africa , I’m a long lost prince you know
robwlondon
Posting Guru
I think it will be a big part of the mix, perhaps for domestic using the gas mains, and it looks like it will come in for trains as its a lot cheaper to convert than overhead electrification. I can see hydrogen on HGV before cars as there's a better pay back and no need for filling stations as they will fill up at the depot, that's part of the rail argument too.
Just send your crypto wallet address, no one will abuse it, promise...
Send all you have. I will PM you my address. Cheques or bankers drafts only.Brilliant, how much should I send , is it the same P.O. Box that I sent my birth certificate and £100 to in South Africa , I’m a long lost prince you know
freqmikey
Big Landy Fan
I always run straight to the hydrogen solution. To me it seems that it is the solution not least because with attention to the fuel storage and delivery system all the internal combustion vehicles already around could be converted to run on it. That seems like a very sensible and efficient way to solve the problem.However, there's not enough money generated through just that... it's clearly better for the economy to scrap all the existing vehicles and start again regardless of the extra environmental damage that's causing
My prediction is that they'll continue to demonize the internal combustion engines in their current form until the changeover to battery power is substantial, the majority of the sheeple will be doing their commuting using electric motors; give it maybe 20yrs and we'll be there.
By then the new crisis of there not being enough lithium etc left to make new batteries will have become apparent; and lets not forget the huge pile of scrap batteries and worn out motors, burned out controllers etc that there will be ..............
It's then that a 'new' type of engine, equally as efficient as the electric motor and running on a new fuel, will be launched, heavily promoted by whatever government exists then.....
The new fuel will be given a catchy name, maybe even just numbers...... it'll be a heavily disguised blend of hydrogen and other gasses (there are so many to choose from!).
The engine itself will be a remarkable device, beautifully simple at it's core but with some pretty clever engineering required to make it work, a good platform to build an entire new industry !
I'll spare you the detail of how I predict the engine will work, the vision is very clear in my mind, and summarize it by saying it'll essentially be 'suck, squeeze, bang, blow'
.... I know I know it's a completely revolutionary idea and hard for you to imagine how it'll work but then, remember back when we thought telephones had to be connected to the wall, it's worth keeping an eye on the future eh Anyway, I'm back off into the shed to continue experimenting with distillation, all those wood chippings and biodegradable packaging must have some use.....and if I cant run the Landy on it I can flavour it with juniper berries and a few manky strawberries and call it Gin, all the trendy people seem to love Gin right now ..... yee har
robwlondon
Posting Guru
I fear you are right.
Hydrogen has so many problems associated with it that I just don't see its widespread use for light vehicles. The production of hydrogen currently requires 2-3 times more energy input than the resulting gas carries, put it into a fuel cell and you loose another 40%, in an internal combustion engine 75%; meaning from energy generation to motor/engine output the efficiency is between 8% and 30% compared to 85% for a battery EV. For a Landy converted to run on hydrogen you'd be talking £'s per mile in fuel, unless you have a V8 and then it will be limbs per mile!
Lithium extraction from sea water has been piloted at the same cost as traditional land based mining and will certainly get cheaper as the process is scaled up and refined, just 1% of the lithium in the oceans would be enough to change every vehicle on the planet to a battery EV. When those batteries reach the end of their lives in a car after 15-20 years (they are lasting much longer than originally anticipated) they have a further 20-30 years life in static storage facilities and after that they can be recycled.
Lithium extraction from sea water has been piloted at the same cost as traditional land based mining and will certainly get cheaper as the process is scaled up and refined, just 1% of the lithium in the oceans would be enough to change every vehicle on the planet to a battery EV. When those batteries reach the end of their lives in a car after 15-20 years (they are lasting much longer than originally anticipated) they have a further 20-30 years life in static storage facilities and after that they can be recycled.
robwlondon
Posting Guru
The hydrogen issue is interesting, they are now talking about 3 categories:
1 Made from burning fossil fuel
2 Made from burning fossil fuel but with carbon capture (ie allegedly carbon zero)
3 Made from renewable - solar, wind.
And guess what, its 90+ % type 1 for the next decade with type 3 2-3 times more expensive at the moment.
In the end type 3 is a good solution but there's a long way to go.
There's a lot of spin..
1 Made from burning fossil fuel
2 Made from burning fossil fuel but with carbon capture (ie allegedly carbon zero)
3 Made from renewable - solar, wind.
And guess what, its 90+ % type 1 for the next decade with type 3 2-3 times more expensive at the moment.
In the end type 3 is a good solution but there's a long way to go.
There's a lot of spin..
There seems to be some confusion here HVO is different from 1st Gen Biofuel
HVO stands for hydrogenated or hydrotreated vegetable oil. It is made by reacting vegetable or other oils with hydrogen at high temperature and pressure.
It is made up of straight chained molecules, contains few impurities and burns very cleanly.
HVO is part of the paraffinic fuel family. It is a second-generation biofuel, also known as an advanced biofuel or renewable diesel, made from vegetable oils or animal fats. Unlike first-generation biofuels, these raw sources are processed using a specialist hydro-treatment to achieve high levels of purity. The result is a stable fuel with a long-shelf life and excellent performance year-round.
HVO is a drop-in replacement for diesel. It delivers an efficient and reliable performance for vehicles and machinery across industries.
It is made from renewable resources but does not contain FAME – the root cause of many of the fuel storage problems and fuel filter blocking issues.
It has a naturally high cetane number meaning that ignition is easy and combustion is complete – this reduces smoke and particulate emissions.
It is a drop-in replacement for many distillate fossil fuel grades such as diesel, gas oil and kerosene. It can also be blended with traditional fuels in any proportion.
It has good cold weather properties and good long-term storage stability.
Tailpipe emissions of CO and CO2 are reduced due to the high hydrogen to carbon ratio and some reduction in NOx is claimed, although this is usually a function of engine set-up and combustion temperature.
HVO offers an immediate and fungible alternative to fossil fuels without any need for vehicle modification or changes to supply infrastructure.
Well-sourced regular fuel, stored correctly and dosed with additives that keep the injectors clean and optimise the combustion process, when used in a well-maintained engine will reduce carbon emissions and fuel consumption by up to 4%.
HVO stands for hydrogenated or hydrotreated vegetable oil. It is made by reacting vegetable or other oils with hydrogen at high temperature and pressure.
It is made up of straight chained molecules, contains few impurities and burns very cleanly.
HVO is part of the paraffinic fuel family. It is a second-generation biofuel, also known as an advanced biofuel or renewable diesel, made from vegetable oils or animal fats. Unlike first-generation biofuels, these raw sources are processed using a specialist hydro-treatment to achieve high levels of purity. The result is a stable fuel with a long-shelf life and excellent performance year-round.
HVO is a drop-in replacement for diesel. It delivers an efficient and reliable performance for vehicles and machinery across industries.
It is made from renewable resources but does not contain FAME – the root cause of many of the fuel storage problems and fuel filter blocking issues.
It has a naturally high cetane number meaning that ignition is easy and combustion is complete – this reduces smoke and particulate emissions.
It is a drop-in replacement for many distillate fossil fuel grades such as diesel, gas oil and kerosene. It can also be blended with traditional fuels in any proportion.
It has good cold weather properties and good long-term storage stability.
Tailpipe emissions of CO and CO2 are reduced due to the high hydrogen to carbon ratio and some reduction in NOx is claimed, although this is usually a function of engine set-up and combustion temperature.
HVO offers an immediate and fungible alternative to fossil fuels without any need for vehicle modification or changes to supply infrastructure.
Well-sourced regular fuel, stored correctly and dosed with additives that keep the injectors clean and optimise the combustion process, when used in a well-maintained engine will reduce carbon emissions and fuel consumption by up to 4%.
Well thats my word of the day!
fungible
fungible
robwlondon
Posting Guru
HVO is still greenwash, its competing with food crops for farm land and therefore banned in a number of counties. Hydrogenation is a nasty business and we will see hydrogenated foods increasingly banned. I know this is fuel not food, but we have yet to see whether the exhaust products of burning hydrogenated oils are safe.
Dave Cook
Big Landy Fan
We need you back on the forum Freqmikey, you are a big miss!
However, there's not enough money generated through just that... it's clearly better for the economy to scrap all the existing vehicles and start again regardless of the extra environmental damage that's causing
My prediction is that they'll continue to demonize the internal combustion engines in their current form until the changeover to battery power is substantial, the majority of the sheeple will be doing their commuting using electric motors; give it maybe 20yrs and we'll be there.
By then the new crisis of there not being enough lithium etc left to make new batteries will have become apparent; and lets not forget the huge pile of scrap batteries and worn out motors, burned out controllers etc that there will be ..............
It's then that a 'new' type of engine, equally as efficient as the electric motor and running on a new fuel, will be launched, heavily promoted by whatever government exists then.....
The new fuel will be given a catchy name, maybe even just numbers...... it'll be a heavily disguised blend of hydrogen and other gasses (there are so many to choose from!).
The engine itself will be a remarkable device, beautifully simple at it's core but with some pretty clever engineering required to make it work, a good platform to build an entire new industry !
I'll spare you the detail of how I predict the engine will work, the vision is very clear in my mind, and summarize it by saying it'll essentially be 'suck, squeeze, bang, blow'
Anyway, I'm back off into the shed to continue experimenting with distillation, all those wood chippings and biodegradable packaging must have some use.....and if I cant run the Landy on it I can flavour it with juniper berries and a few manky strawberries and call it Gin, all the trendy people seem to love Gin right now ..... yee har
Isn’t that another name for mushroomWell thats my word of the day!
fungible
It will be now...
I ‘think’ it means has the same value as the fossil fuel it is replacing?
For example, a pound of flour has the same value as another pound of flour (be that calorific, or cash) but if you bake a cake with it, it’s value changes because it’s no longer the same product, so is not fungible.
I prefer the mushroom version myself, very miconiumal.
For example, a pound of flour has the same value as another pound of flour (be that calorific, or cash) but if you bake a cake with it, it’s value changes because it’s no longer the same product, so is not fungible.
I prefer the mushroom version myself, very miconiumal.
As soon as I read this, I just thought...
Never mind all that fungus based flower stuff in someones cake.
There are hvo producers out there that use recycled vegatable and animal fats from restaurants, processed food producers etc. Their fuels end up with a carbon net gain even though it takes a lot of energy to produce. Very high cetane levels claimed, better burn less nasties out of the back. Expensive but much cleaner than fossil fuel. Cetane may be too high for some of the later oil burners.
Going to try a tank in disco 2 td5.
Going to try a tank in disco 2 td5.