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Them EV thingys.

I fail to understand the logic behind the push towards EVs. Imagine that everybody today replaced their existing ICEV with a new EV, now think about the first night of ownership. Almost everybody parks their new EV and plug-in, and billions of Megawatts begin to flow along the newly installed cables to the charging points newly installed for each new EV. This new demand for electricity each night that previously was not required as people were asleep, requires hundreds of new power generating plants to burn fuel to generate the new power demand. It's night so dark; no sunshine, and invariably calm; no wind. In general terms, either coal, gas, other combustible fuel, will have to be burned, even if many nuclear plants are commissioned to be built and then uranium has to be mined to fuel them (is it in unlimited supply?).
The point I'm making here, is we seem to be on a completely stupid and ill thought through journey that massively increases the demand for energy way over and above that we already have. Apart from the excess electricity that needs to be generated to charge the EV batteries, there's far more needed to supply the manufacture of all of the vehicles and infrastructure needed to support them. The building requirements, the crazy mining needs for raw materials, the massive increase in fossil fuels that will have to be burned to mine and process the raw materials, and again, to manufacture and install the infrastructure, manufacture the new vehicles, and dispose of the old. And that's another whole problem; what exactly are we supposed to do with all of the existing ICEVs that although working perfectly well, consuming far less than will be needed to replace them, and emitting a fraction of the pollutants that will be pumped into our atmosphere in this crazy rush to convert to EVs.
Complete an utter madness dreamed up by some of the most stupid people that have ever been in positions of power to affect our lives. Do any of these idiots ever think things through properly? I can only imagine they stop thinking after deciding electric powered vehicles have no exhaust so therefore are the solution to exhaust emitting vehicles; brilliant!

Oh, and while I'm here, our governments currently collect essential revenues by taxing vehicles and fuel. Since this will disappear with the fossil fuels, then it will obviously have to come from somewhere else, so it's pretty damn obvious that there will be no tax advantage to having an EV and there will soon have to be a hefty tax applied to electricity too, so it's all going to get very expensive to own or drive a vehicle at all.
 
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There was an article in the guardian raising exactly the same points as well as the energy consumed by the factories where they will be built, things taken into consideration included: telephones and telephone calls, pieces of paper being shuffled, computers being provided, computers being used, heat and light for the factory, staff canteen, staff toilets and so it goes on.
 
Cliff4WD said:
I fail to understand the logic behind the push towards EVs. Imagine that everybody today replaced their existing ICEV with a new EV, now think about the first night of ownership. Almost everybody parks their new EV and plug-in, and billions of Megawatts begin to flow along the newly installed cables to the charging points newly installed for each new EV. This new demand for electricity each night that previously was not required as people were asleep, requires hundreds of new power generating plants to burn fuel to generate the new power demand. It's night so dark; no sunshine, and invariably calm; no wind. In general terms, either coal, gas, other combustible fuel, will have to be burned, even if many nuclear plants are commissioned to be built and then uranium has to be mined to fuel them (is it in unlimited supply?).
The point I'm making here, is we seem to be on a completely stupid and ill thought through journey that massively increases the demand for energy way over and above that we already have. Apart from the excess electricity that needs to be generated to charge the EV batteries, there's far more needed to supply the manufacture of all of the vehicles and infrastructure needed to support them. The building requirements, the crazy mining needs for raw materials, the massive increase in fossil fuels that will have to be burned to mine and process the raw materials, and again, to manufacture and install the infrastructure, manufacture the new vehicles, and dispose of the old. And that's another whole problem; what exactly are we supposed to do with all of the existing ICEVs that although working perfectly well, consuming far less than will be needed to replace them, and emitting a fraction of the pollutants that will be pumped into our atmosphere in this crazy rush to convert to EVs.
Complete an utter madness dreamed up by some of the most stupid people that have ever been in positions of power to affect our lives. Do any of these idiots ever think things through properly? I can only imagine they stop thinking after deciding electric powered vehicles have no exhaust so therefore are the solution to exhaust emitting vehicles; brilliant!

Oh, and while I'm here, our governments currently collect essential revenues by taxing vehicles and fuel. Since this will disappear with the fossil fuels, then it will obviously have to come from somewhere else, so it's pretty damn obvious that there will be no tax advantage to having an EV and there will soon have to be a hefty tax applied to electricity too, so it's all going to get very expensive to own or drive a vehicle at all.
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You have basically summed up my thoughts on the ev matter!
 
Cliff4WD said:
I fail to understand the logic behind the push towards EVs. Imagine that everybody today replaced their existing ICEV with a new EV, now think about the first night of ownership. Almost everybody parks their new EV and plug-in, and billions of Megawatts begin to flow along the newly installed cables to the charging points newly installed for each new EV. This new demand for electricity each night that previously was not required as people were asleep, requires hundreds of new power generating plants to burn fuel to generate the new power demand. It's night so dark; no sunshine, and invariably calm; no wind. In general terms, either coal, gas, other combustible fuel, will have to be burned, even if many nuclear plants are commissioned to be built and then uranium has to be mined to fuel them (is it in unlimited supply?).
The point I'm making here, is we seem to be on a completely stupid and ill thought through journey that massively increases the demand for energy way over and above that we already have. Apart from the excess electricity that needs to be generated to charge the EV batteries, there's far more needed to supply the manufacture of all of the vehicles and infrastructure needed to support them. The building requirements, the crazy mining needs for raw materials, the massive increase in fossil fuels that will have to be burned to mine and process the raw materials, and again, to manufacture and install the infrastructure, manufacture the new vehicles, and dispose of the old. And that's another whole problem; what exactly are we supposed to do with all of the existing ICEVs that although working perfectly well, consuming far less than will be needed to replace them, and emitting a fraction of the pollutants that will be pumped into our atmosphere in this crazy rush to convert to EVs.
Complete an utter madness dreamed up by some of the most stupid people that have ever been in positions of power to affect our lives. Do any of these idiots ever think things through properly? I can only imagine they stop thinking after deciding electric powered vehicles have no exhaust so therefore are the solution to exhaust emitting vehicles; brilliant!

Oh, and while I'm here, our governments currently collect essential revenues by taxing vehicles and fuel. Since this will disappear with the fossil fuels, then it will obviously have to come from somewhere else, so it's pretty damn obvious that there will be no tax advantage to having an EV and there will soon have to be a hefty tax applied to electricity too, so it's all going to get very expensive to own or drive a vehicle at all.
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Great post - I think I managed to fill up my EV myth bingo card.

How's your fuel bill this month? :)
 
g00se78 said:
Great post - I think I managed to fill up my EV myth bingo card.

How's your fuel bill this month? :)
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Are you saying that things I've said are incorrect; are myths?
Rather than the slightly sneering, dismissive, cocky, and superior attitude, perhaps you might explain the reasoning behind your assertion. I'm open minded enough to accept a reasoned argument; maybe you'll change my thinking.
 
g00se78 said:
Imagine if everyone tried to top up their tanks at once because there was a rumour about a fuel shortage...?
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The difference is that almost everybody will plug in to charge up overnight. Not a valid comparison at all. Not only that, but the electricity that will be demanded however much, is in addition to the current demand which is virtually non existent for this purpose today.
 
if/when the bulk of the vehicle fleet is EV, picture this.
I keep making the comparison between my partner's diesel Kia and an EV.
I fill the Kia with energy, it takes less than 5 minutes to store enough energy to propel it for 600 miles. AT the end of the 600 miles it will take roughly another 5 minutes to completely replenish that energy and I am on my way again.
When EVs can compete with that it will be a different matter entirely.
Imagine the amount of infrastructure that a typical service area will require, the vastly uprated electrical installation to handle a couple of hundred cars, say another 100 or so trucks and maybe 20 coaches. Then how long those people will have to be there for in order to add a realistic amount of charge, then those vehicles limping in on a whiff of battery power and waiting for a charging point to become vacant.
Long journeys will take a great deal more forethought and planning than is currently required.
If drive time radio programmes are to be believed, people living in Cornwall and visiting granny for the weekend in Inverness might be better served either taking the train, or flying.
If the government is being serious about this and we are going to run everything on electricity there is going to have to be an enormous expansion of generating capacity to replace all those gas boilers, all those gas cookers, solid fuel boilers, LPG cookers all those commercial gas boilers and gas kitchens.

Purely personal thoughts but I think EVs are a stop gap measure. Oil companies are working on the development of sustainable ynthetic fuels made from carbon dioxide and other components, fuel cell technology is advancing rapidly and is far cleaner/greener than electic vehicle.
 
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Neil said:
if/when the bulk of the vehicle fleet is EV, picture this.
I keep making the comparison between my partner's diesel Kia and an EV.
I fill the Kia with energy, it takes less than 5 minutes to store enough energy to propel it for 600 miles. AT the end of the 600 miles it will take roughly another 5 minutes to completely replenish that energy and I am on my way again.
When EVs can compete with that it will be a different matter entirely.
Imagine the amount of infrastructure that a typical service area will require, the vastly uprated electrical installation to handle a couple of hundred cars, say another 100 or so trucks and maybe 20 coaches. Then how long those people will have to be there for in order to add a realistic amount of charge, then those vehicles limping in on a whiff of battery power and waiting for a charging point to become vacant.
Long journeys will take a great deal more forethought and planning than is currently required.
If drive time radio programmes are to be believed, people living in Cornwall and visiting granny for the weekend in Inverness might be better served either taking the train, or flying.
If the government is being serious about this and we are going to run everything on electricity there is going to have to be an enormous expansion of generating capacity to replace all those gas boilers, all those gas cookers, solid fuel boilers, LPG cookers all those commercial gas boilers and gas kitchens.

Purely personal thoughts but I think EVs are a stop gap measure. Oil companies are working on the development of sustainable ynthetic fuels made from carbon dioxide and other components, fuel cell technology is advancing rapidly and is far cleaner/greener than electic vehicle.
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A well thought through post! Just think of the profit potential of all those captive vehicles while they are recharging, coffee, cakes, burgers, comfort breaks. Then the profit to be made from treating the (now even more serious) obesity of the drivers!

The root cause of the problem is that we are addicted to fossil fuel powered personal transport. A hundred and odd years ago very few people travelled far on a daily basis, maybe once or twice a year on a train. Now it is considered quite normal to commute tens or in some cases 100s of miles. Some even commute by plane, we had a tycoon on IOM who used to commute to England in his private helicopter every day, total madness. David
 
As everyone is pointing out EVs are a false economy , not enough charging points , cost to make are not environmentally friendly , life span of them are less than a normal car, impact to make them on the environment is at a greater cost ,just like wind turbines , they have a life expectancy and when they are no use they go into landfill , ridiculous
 
I think they have their place - like milk floats, trams, local taxis in cities only, and to be used alongside electric bikes and scooters. They should not however be a direct replacement for long distance travel options or goods delivery. I see them as part of a solution, but not a whole solution.
I still predict that 3 cylinder turbo diesels using ceramic coated parts should provide a good clean solution if you choose the right fuel - that can be grown like the original peanut oil. Maybe using algae. Just on the expected lifespan of the vehicle it will win out on production energy. Do we really expect these new EV's to still be going strong in10 years?
Put a 3 cylinder TDi in a 2CV and it will probably suit most of the transport needs of the masses.
 
Cliff4WD said:
I fail to understand the logic behind the push towards EVs. Imagine that everybody today replaced their existing ICEV with a new EV, now think about the first night of ownership. Almost everybody parks their new EV and plug-in, and billions of Megawatts begin to flow along the newly installed cables to the charging points newly installed for each new EV. This new demand for electricity each night that previously was not required as people were asleep, requires hundreds of new power generating plants to burn fuel to generate the new power demand. It's night so dark; no sunshine, and invariably calm; no wind. In general terms, either coal, gas, other combustible fuel, will have to be burned, even if many nuclear plants are commissioned to be built and then uranium has to be mined to fuel them (is it in unlimited supply?).
The point I'm making here, is we seem to be on a completely stupid and ill thought through journey that massively increases the demand for energy way over and above that we already have. Apart from the excess electricity that needs to be generated to charge the EV batteries, there's far more needed to supply the manufacture of all of the vehicles and infrastructure needed to support them. The building requirements, the crazy mining needs for raw materials, the massive increase in fossil fuels that will have to be burned to mine and process the raw materials, and again, to manufacture and install the infrastructure, manufacture the new vehicles, and dispose of the old. And that's another whole problem; what exactly are we supposed to do with all of the existing ICEVs that although working perfectly well, consuming far less than will be needed to replace them, and emitting a fraction of the pollutants that will be pumped into our atmosphere in this crazy rush to convert to EVs.
Complete an utter madness dreamed up by some of the most stupid people that have ever been in positions of power to affect our lives. Do any of these idiots ever think things through properly? I can only imagine they stop thinking after deciding electric powered vehicles have no exhaust so therefore are the solution to exhaust emitting vehicles; brilliant!

Oh, and while I'm here, our governments currently collect essential revenues by taxing vehicles and fuel. Since this will disappear with the fossil fuels, then it will obviously have to come from somewhere else, so it's pretty damn obvious that there will be no tax advantage to having an EV and there will soon have to be a hefty tax applied to electricity too, so it's all going to get very expensive to own or drive a vehicle at all.
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Just to be clear, I'm not interested in changing your 'thinking'. EVs are currently in short supply so having more people buy them doesn't help. Your rant sounds a lot like those who don't see the point in mobile phones or the internet.

If you want to continue paying a high price for burning fossil fuels, then be my guest. It will only continue to get more expensive.

But in answer to your points, I'll try and provide some clarification:
  • No-one is suggesting everyone changes to an EV overnight. This will be a long process. Even the 2030 target is just of the halt of sales of new ICE - but in reality this will get watered down. For instance there will likely be loads of exceptions of commercial and agricultural vehicles.
  • In terms of the grid not being able to cope - most EVs are charged at home overnight. This is when the demand on the grid is at its lowest. National Grid estimate the grid can cope with roughly 50% of current vehicles being EVs without any changes. However they are investing heavily to improve the grid for EVs, and why wouldn't they? They get to sell more electricity.
  • The argument about materials for EV batteries is a strange one. I don't hear anyone complain about all the exotic materials in today's ICE - such as platinum & palladium for catalysts, aluminium and everything needed for the chips. EVs just require a different set of materials, which the supply side needs to meet. That's a challenge, but some seem blind to the environmental impact of oil production, such as in the Nigerian Delta.
  • In terms of the legacy fleet - no-one is proposing to ban these. They will keep on going, however become more expensive to run. The economic argument is about to flip in favour of EVs as the production cost falls, whilst the cost to maintain ICEs will increase. Petrol stations are becoming less common - 36% fewer since 2000.
  • Taxing of electricity for cars is an interesting one. Some think we'll move to road tolls (as they are in Europe), to replace the missing duty on fuel. Although it's fascinating hearing people argue we should pay more tax. :)
Just in case you think all of the above is wishful thinking, I'll describe my experience of running EVs since 2015:
  • Virtually no maintenance costs - only tyres. Brake wear is a lot less and there are no oil changes.
  • Over 95% of my charging is at home. This happens overnight when I'm sleeping, so I don't have to go and fill up weekly at a supermarket. (I also giggle at the prices now).
  • I've done long road trips across Europe. Travel times are only slightly longer than in an ICE, but with a bit of planning they can coincide with rest and lunch breaks.
  • I installed solar last year. Now I can charge exclusively on solar from April to October, so the cost of driving is essentially zero.
  • Much quieter and quicker to drive. Great performance at roundabouts. I find it a bit of a shock going back to an ICE now.
  • Pre-conditioning the car in the winter or summer is a godsend. No more burning your arse getting into a hot car.
So the transition to EVs isn't without challenges. I mean just go back and read what it was like for those adopting the first petrol cars in the early 1900s - they had similar issues with refuelling.

But don't worry, no-one is going to take away your oil burners. Just like people still ride horses today, you will be able to continue to enjoy these, and pay for the privilege. But like horses they might be banned from certain roads.
 
Richie_asg1 said:
Do we really expect these new EV's to still be going strong in10 years?
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In a word, yes. There are already EVs approaching 10 years old that show little sign of wearing out. Teslas and Nissan Leafs for one.

These were early technologies, which have already been improved on massively. Tesla are currently designing battery packs and motors to last 1 million miles. So that's a 100 years of use for the average user.

Case in point, I'm currently converting my SIII to electric (see separate thread) using old Nissan Leaf parts. The battery pack was from a guy who upgraded his old pack to a higher capacity one. So the pack I'm using is getting a second life as opposed to being thrown away or melted down for scrap.

The thing that seems to kill modern ICE engines (or at least cause problems) is the complex emission control systems. Electric motors and battery systems in comparison are much simpler with far fewer moving parts. Swapping a motor, gearbox or battery is relatively simple in comparison, which helps to keep the on the road.

The price of second hand EVs also supports this point.
 
g00se78 said:
Your rant
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I posted my thoughts on the idea of EVs replacing ICE. I did not "rant". I think you would do better to actually read what is said rather than seeing what you assume is being said and making judgements about the person making the comment. You would also do better to refrain from rudeness as it just gets peoples backs up. I am trying to remain courteous and polite, but your tone is not welcome. I said nothing about EVs in themselves being a bad idea or that I was wedded to the ICE; that's your assumption, I was specifically questioning the notion of a burning more fossil fuels to generate more electricity being a solution to climate change, I wasn't knocking EVs at all; I was having a go at politicians!
There is a valid debate to be had about many of the ideas surrounding so called climate change, and the wholesale rush towards certain solutions to an not properly defined problem is worthy of question.
Please climb down off your high horse, and a lot less of the passive aggression please.
 
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I have been reading this thread and a lot of thought provoking stuff on here. My personal view is I am in favour of EV's, having said that I think the days of personal car ownership should end at the same time. Heh while we are going through this change why not make it a tad more dramatic. Maybe we should be thinking along the lines of local car pools where vehicles owned by a company are kept in a place on charge and then they could be booked for use, much like a taxi. Let's face it, the roads are crowded but most cars at any given time ain't going anywhere. I live in a very quiet area (semi rural) but the amount of cars around here parked up and going nowhere is insane. I am guilty, I have two vehicles parked on my driveway.

Massive investment in public transport and car pools is the way forward. Time to think outside the box me thinks.
 
Cliff4WD said:
I posted my thoughts on the idea of EVs replacing ICE. I did not "rant". I think you would do better to actually read what is said rather than seeing what you assume is being said and making judgements about the person making the comment. You would also do better to refrain from rudeness as it just gets peoples backs up. I am trying to remain courteous and polite, but your tone is not welcome. I said nothing about EVs in themselves being a bad idea or that I was wedded to the ICE; that's your assumption, I was specifically questioning the notion of a burning more fossil fuels to generate more electricity being a solution to climate change, I wasn't knocking EVs at all; I was having a go at politicians!
There is a valid debate to be had about many of the ideas surrounding so called climate change, and the wholesale rush towards certain solutions to an not properly defined problem is worthy of question.
Please climb down off your high horse, and a lot less of the passive aggression please.
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And this is not passive aggressive? Or rude?

You asked to explain why I thought your post was about myths. I did so. I'm sorry you don't like the answer.

Cliff4WD said:
Complete an utter madness dreamed up by some of the most stupid people that have ever been in positions of power to affect our lives. Do any of these idiots ever think things through properly?
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So you realise that politicians don't build cars? And normal people still have to buy them. This does sound like a rant to me.

So if you think they're a bad idea, don't buy one. But plenty of people will.

You like to refer to 'idiots', but I can assure you there are plenty of bright people who have 'thought this through properly'.
 
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