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Electronic ignition

@steveseries72 , I would proceed with great caution. I have been down this road and come back to a standard points condenser setup. There has been a lot of discussion on this subject on the Forum. One of our members @distributorguy has a lot of experience in this field. Do a serch on his posts and you will come across many references to PowerSpark (Simonbloc). The best answer I can give you is if you have an original Lucas 45D distributor, in good condition, set up with OEM (not chindian) points and condenser with quality HT leads this will be far more reliable than cheap electronic ignition. The problem I had with my Powerspark set up (and I had fitted the purpose built Powerspark distributor) was that it would work great , for a while, then it wouldn't start or it would cut out for no reason and the spark was very weak. I spent hours changing wiring chasing all the possibilities I and other Forum members could come up with. All to no avail. Eventually, after reading the information that DistributorGuy posted I got an original Lucas distributor from @Big Sandy and a new distributor cap, points and condenser from The Distributor Doctor, in the UK and it's not missed a beat since.
DON'T BUY CHEAP CHINESE/INDIAN CRAP it looks the part but it doesn't work.
 
Guitar Mick said:
@steveseries72 , I would proceed with great caution. I have been down this road and come back to a standard points condenser setup. There has been a lot of discussion on this subject on the Forum. One of our members @distributorguy has a lot of experience in this field. Do a serch on his posts and you will come across many references to PowerSpark (Simonbloc). The best answer I can give you is if you have an original Lucas 45D distributor, in good condition, set up with OEM (not chindian) points and condenser with quality HT leads this will be far more reliable than cheap electronic ignition. The problem I had with my Powerspark set up (and I had fitted the purpose built Powerspark distributor) was that it would work great , for a while, then it wouldn't start or it would cut out for no reason and the spark was very weak. I spent hours changing wiring chasing all the possibilities I and other Forum members could come up with. All to no avail. Eventually, after reading the information that DistributorGuy posted I got an original Lucas distributor from @Big Sandy and a new distributor cap, points and condenser from The Distributor Doctor, in the UK and it's not missed a beat since.
DON'T BUY CHEAP CHINESE/INDIAN CRAP it looks the part but it doesn't work.
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Thanks @Guitar Mick for your word of caution. I will search the a Distributor Doctors posts and have a read. I have an original Lucas distributor and it doesn’t give me trouble per say, I was just after a failsafe low maintenance system that didn’t require unnecessary faffing about under the bonnet every couple of thousand miles. There seem to be a plethora of options available from £30 to £300, I will also look at DD prices for a rebuild of the original for peace of mind, I think it has been a little neglected and the advance mechanism may need some tlc. I understand about the Chindian parts and would prefer to buy anything better made, it seems more and more difficult these days to buy proper quality parts wherever you look.
Thanks for the advice 👍🏻
 
steveseries72 said:
Thanks @Guitar Mick for your word of caution. I will search the a Distributor Doctors posts and have a read. I have an original Lucas distributor and it doesn’t give me trouble per say, I was just after a failsafe low maintenance system that didn’t require unnecessary faffing about under the bonnet every couple of thousand miles. There seem to be a plethora of options available from £30 to £300, I will also look at DD prices for a rebuild of the original for peace of mind, I think it has been a little neglected and the advance mechanism may need some tlc. I understand about the Chindian parts and would prefer to buy anything better made, it seems more and more difficult these days to buy proper quality parts wherever you look.
Thanks for the advice 👍🏻
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It's the distributorguy's threads you need to look at (he's in the States) The distributor doctor is in the UK and service your distributor as well as supply the proper bits.
 
Yes, I'm a points advocate from decades f dyno testing, bench testing and racing. Typically whatever provides the most reliable timing will result in the best drivability, and that's a good set of points in a tight, well built and properly set up distributor. No distributor with an improper timing curve will run great with either points OR electronics. That's only the trigger for the coil and has very little influence on how the engine runs, with the exception of spark degradation that can occur from electrical noise influencing electronics. How much and when the distributor advances affects the drivability immensely.

In the end, anyone who puts electronics into a points distributor and says it runs better, the ONLY reason that can occur is if a "fixed electronic dwell" is masking wear and tear. That's the only beneficial change, and its only beneficial because its a clear indicator that your distributor needs repair. In a properly rebuilt or good new distributor, points will run better than electronics - with a power gain of up to about 10% in many cases. I've seen 40% gains, but that's not typical. A 4-7 hp gain should be expected in any 4 cylinder after a proper distributor rebuild, running points. Keep in mind that a good rebuild is not a clean and reassemble scenario. There are a LOT of factors that can be improved during a rebuild like rate/amount of mechanical and vacuum advance, phasing, clearances, drop-in depth, etc...

I could type for hours on this, but I'm not trying to sell wares or preach for points. You do you, as long as you're maintaining your Landy!
 
distributorguy said:
Yes, I'm a points advocate from decades f dyno testing, bench testing and racing. Typically whatever provides the most reliable timing will result in the best drivability, and that's a good set of points in a tight, well built and properly set up distributor. No distributor with an improper timing curve will run great with either points OR electronics. That's only the trigger for the coil and has very little influence on how the engine runs, with the exception of spark degradation that can occur from electrical noise influencing electronics. How much and when the distributor advances affects the drivability immensely.

In the end, anyone who puts electronics into a points distributor and says it runs better, the ONLY reason that can occur is if a "fixed electronic dwell" is masking wear and tear. That's the only beneficial change, and its only beneficial because its a clear indicator that your distributor needs repair. In a properly rebuilt or good new distributor, points will run better than electronics - with a power gain of up to about 10% in many cases. I've seen 40% gains, but that's not typical. A 4-7 hp gain should be expected in any 4 cylinder after a proper distributor rebuild, running points. Keep in mind that a good rebuild is not a clean and reassemble scenario. There are a LOT of factors that can be improved during a rebuild like rate/amount of mechanical and vacuum advance, phasing, clearances, drop-in depth, etc...

I could type for hours on this, but I'm not trying to sell wares or preach for points. You do you, as long as you're maintaining your Landy!
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Thanks for your response and explanation. It is useful to know the factors that contribute to the spark and enable it to be produced in a reliable manner. If electronics in the distributor don’t improve or enhance the quality of the spark itself but merely mask a distributor in need of an overhaul then it stands to reason the place to start would be a proper distributor rebuild with quality components, i.e. points, condenser & leads used to maximise the existing set-up. This sounds like the preferred and sensible route, in essence to start at the beginning.
 
I'm for keeping the points also.
They have a far better track record than any modern electronic switch.
I'd add that electronic ignition will increase the power of the spark (for dwell reasons already mentioned) that enables a larger gap to be set in the spark plugs.
This will allow an old and aging engine to run more smoothly.
The engine in my S1 is still original.
When I bought the vehicle it was considered by many in the trade to be scrap.
As time has passed, my wish to strip the engine down to make it all new has diminished substantially, partly because of the effect of the electronic ignition and partly because real original engines have become rare.

I've lived long enough to understand what we undervalue today is the reason so many things become rare, valuable and sometime unobtainable in the future.
 
Series 1 2 & 3 said:
I've lived long enough to understand what we undervalue today is the reason so many things become rare, valuable and sometime unobtainable in the future
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I might not have lived so long, but I should put that on a Tshirt... the only thing you ever hear from people who don't get that is "wow remember when they were so common, you don't see any of them now, you wonder where they all went." or something along those lines. Yeah I wonder where they all went... lol.

Keeping in topic: what's the opinion of the older style external modules that keep the points, but take all load off them entirely and 'collapse' the coil with an external 'amplifier' unit. The best option entirely?
 
SWBFreeLoader said:
Keeping in topic: what's the opinion of the older style external modules that keep the points, but take all load off them entirely and 'collapse' the coil with an external 'amplifier' unit. The best option entirely?
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I've had poor luck with these. A foil/paper or foil/poly capacitor is just like a roll of toilet paper. Its not prone to failure like circuitry. They can last 30+ years left untouched. Failures are due to other problems like extreme heat, poor grounding, etc... Most "bad condensers" are caused by high voltage misfires and inadequate grounding like a 60 year old engine ground strap, no internal distributor grounding, or a loose hold-down screw (which is a 6/32 but can be replaced with an M4.
 
distributorguy said:
which is a 6/32
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Is that different from 3/16?... Genuine question.

My 80 year old stationary engine's condenser still produced a spark, albeit weak. That was after being buried for at least 60 years. It got changed anyway as the mag needed rewound but still surprising.
 
I was going to mention dwell as one of the "benefits" of electronic ignition, but series 123 covered it. But my angle was that triggering the coil in a shorter space of time (which electronic does) would in theory give the coil more time to recover inbetween each collapse.

I'm sure I remember D.G saying it was moot though, since the dwell is wandering (on electronic ignition) due to electromagnetic interference
 
DarrenH said:
I was going to mention dwell as one of the "benefits" of electronic ignition, but series 123 covered it. But my angle was that triggering the coil in a shorter space of time (which electronic does) would in theory give the coil more time to recover inbetween each collapse.

I'm sure I remember D.G saying it was moot though, since the dwell is wandering (on electronic ignition) due to electromagnetic interference
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Speaking in an nontechnical way, it must do something good.
You can tell the difference between an ordinary spark made with points and capacitor (condenser used to be the old term) compared to an add-on electronic ignition.
The first produces a spark in free air of about 3-10 mm long, the latter 20 mm, maybe more.
The electronic add-on IME creates much more HT punch.
Also it is worth mentioning that the voltage to trigger the coil provided by an electronic ignition is considerably more than the mere 12 volts provided by just points and the battery.
 
You really don't need more dwell time on a 4 cylinder, even at 10,000 rpm. 60 degree dwell is standard in a 25D and 47 in a 45D, based on cam ramp profile. Most electronic ignitions go with the standard 60 and that's where you're stuck. At least with points you can tune dwell for best drivability, again another feature lost with electronics.

Dwell doesn't wander based on electronic interference, not exactly anyway. False triggers occur, discharging the coil which does affect dwell time I suppose, in that the next cylinder to properly fire will fire with an undercharged coil.

A number 6 screw with 32 threads per inch in the condenser screw, 3/16" long. I don't know what a 3/16" screw refers to unless you mean length? That's not a thing here in the US. Trying to find BSP, Whitworth, BA hardware is near impossible here.

As for electronics providing "more punch" well that's false advertising because you're actually reducing spark duration by as much as 80%. Low compression engines (below 10:1) need MORE spark duration, not less. A long slow spark will better burn the fuel in the cylinder. This is why pairing the proper coil to your ignition system is critical as well. Coils have specific winding ratios and numbers of windings to produce an ideal spark, but most aftermarket coils simply aren't set up correctly - made cheaper with fewer windings, and in most cases these days brittle magnetic steel wire. Don't cheap out on your coil or you'll pay for it over time with reduced drivability.
 
I thought that electronic ignition helped create a larger spark as the power to the coil collapsed faster using electronics than with points and the faster the field collapsed the higher the EMF generated?
 
distributorguy said:
A number 6 screw with 32 threads per inch in the condenser screw, 3/16" long. I don't know what a 3/16" screw refers to unless you mean length? That's not a thing here in the US. Trying to find BSP, Whitworth, BA hardware is near impossible here.
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I have no idea what a number 6 screw is. Is that a 6BA? I thought you might have been meaning something like a 7/32" UNF. It was a genuine query.... I like metric!
 
The problem in most older engines using points and capacitor is getting a worthwhile spark to appear across the plug spark gap to fire the cylinder at all.
IME the older add-on electronic ignitions provided considerable more "punch".
(this is the type of add-on electronics I refer to with original manufacturer's coil fitted.)

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating"and oiled plugs were certainly made to work better using an electronic ignition.

mikeau said:
I thought that electronic ignition helped create a larger spark as the power to the coil collapsed faster using electronics than with points and the faster the field collapsed the higher the EMF generated?
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That too, it is a combination of conditions.
Electronic ignition eradicates the spark that appears at the points that slows the collapse.
 
Bog Orfe said:
A U.S. number 6 screw is 9/64" in diameter. https://www.bsstainless.com/american-screw-sizes
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Just by way of an update I met with Martin Jay, the distributor doctor yesterday, he is over on the East side of Exmoor just a short jaunt away from me and was well worth a visit. From all the replies I received on here, the research as suggested by @Guitar Mick with particular regard to @distributorguy posts, I elected to retain the original points setup. It turned out the distributor fitted to my series 3 was a later 45, but after a conversation with Martin he said he could rebuild an original 25 for my LR in a day or two and I could drop over to collect it and drop off my unit in exchange to save a further visit or dealing with couriers....
The unit looks brand new, fitted with quality components and complete with a graph showing the advance curve throughout the rev range correct within the tolerances he works to. My 'exchange' distributor was knackered, the mainshaft was rough, it was full of grit and what looked like sawdust as well as being fitted with Chindian cap, rotor arm, points and condenser. It dropped straight back in and hopefully will improve spark and response throughout the rev range. Cannot recommend Martin highly enough, great chap full of knowledge and keeps a stock of all parts from decent condensers, points and his proper red rotor arms.

Finally a big thanks to all on here. The straightforward unbiased advice and information this forum generates is fantastic, a credit to all those involved which goes a long way to keeping these old LR's on the road and roadworthy! :)
 
Guitar Mick said:
Excellent result, I suspect you won’t believe the difference this will make 👍
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I hope so! I must confess to not starting it yet as changed the plugs, leads and rewired the coil. I want to sort the valve clearances (hopefully tomorrow) so after all that as long as it starts I will be pleased. I will need to set the timing too so may have to blag a timing gun from someone in the village.
 
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