2.25 petrol engine problems

[Georgedubya]

My main suspects for your leak are now the sump pan gasket or the rear crankshaft seal - Theory: When you are testing it and it is stationary the oil is sitting in the sump, below the level of the join. As you drive it the oil is sloshed to the back of the sump pan where it rises up the back of the block, helped by the crank - the resulting rise in pressure at either or both of the seals is forcing the oil through. This may also be amplified if the crankcase is being pressurized through having worn rings - a compression test will answer that bit

Ah, if only it were that simple!

I can make my engine puke oil out of the filler neck when staionary (and with the correct amount of oil in) by picking the revs up. Within a minute or two the oil comes bubbling up the filler tube and would overflow if I didn't throttle down..........good try though.

 

[Georgedubya]

Hey all.

Histrory of my Landie.
Had it for about 45 days and on the way home, the accelartor got stuck and I was flying down the road.....scary... steped on the clutch and engine over reved, broke a ring or two.
Had it replaced as well as the cyl head skimmed at reputable mechanic.
Went fine after that, then first problem with oil leaking was on a camping trip up in the mountains.
The seal on the oil filler cap blew and resulted in oil everywhere.
After this it comes and goes.

Recently it is everytime I drive a further distance..ie. roads with a 100km/h speed limit (not that I drive that fast.)

George, I also had this sneaky suspicion that everytime the oil blows out it's when the oil has been topped up.
As if the engine only wants a set amount of oil (on the L of dipstick) anything more will be blown out.

Wil refrain from engine flush then...can not afford a engine blow up.

Hi again, just a thought, but do you think your mechanic would be willing to swap e-mails with me to see if we can find some common ground on this one? I'm a qualified mechanic too and to be honest, not being able to sort this out is a bit embarrasing!

I'm just wondering, if we are using the same parts source, maybe thats the problem. I use a lot of 'Britpart' components - maybe you could check with him and let me know?

Thanks
George.

 

[kstrutt1]

The only ways I can see you would get loads of oil up the filler neck are
1.If it is been flung up there by the cam or crank (is the baffle plate fitted at the base of the filler?)
2 It is overfilled, the easist way to check this out is drain the oil and fill with the correct quantity, then check where it is on the dipstick.
3. you are getting a massive amount of blowby pumping loads of oil mist out. If the problem is intermittitent it may be a stuck ring which can sometimes be freed by using fuel addatives or giving it a damn good thrashing.

To check the rings I would suggest a compression test, dry and then with some oil added to see if they increase.

Another way to see if your problem is crankcase pressure is to fit a pressure gauge to the top of the dipstick tube to see what crankcase pressure is building up.

You say you have modified the breather, are you sure this is not part of the problem?

 

[secondjeremy]

If you've got excessive blowby the engine will be covered in oil and it'll blow out of everywhere. The simple way to check is to warm the engine up and take the filler cap off with it running. If you choke - blowby is excessive. If virtually nothing comes out its OK. _OK Bit rough and ready but if the filler looks more like an exhaust pipe its excessive.

 

[littlelegs]

I'm intrigued by your advanced breather system! Perhaps you should put it back to standard and see what happens. Seems to me that there is no open breather, causing a pressure build up or a head leaking. Doesn't the filler have a ventilator on it?

 

[freqmikey]

a proper head-boggler with this one then ... I dont think any part of the oiling system on mine could be called sealed...my understanding of it is that it pumps some of the oil to the top and it dribbles back down and lube's things on it's way, the rest of the oiling is taken care of by it being thrown all over the place by the crank...so, it's not really a 'pressurized' system as such.
Pretty much the only way I could see the crankcase being pressurized would be if there were problems with the rings, or the shape of the bore perhaps...is it round or maybe slightly oval ???


*re-think...another way would perhaps be if there were a crack in the head, but it would have to be a big one to pressurize the oil enough to make it climb up the filler tube !

 

[littlelegs]

a proper head-boggler with this one then ... I dont think any part of the oiling system on mine could be called sealed...my understanding of it is that it pumps some of the oil to the top and it dribbles back down and lube's things on it's way, the rest of the oiling is taken care of by it being thrown all over the place by the crank...so, it's not really a 'pressurized' system as such.
Pretty much the only way I could see the crankcase being pressurized would be if there were problems with the rings, or the shape of the bore perhaps...is it round or maybe slightly oval ???


*re-think...another way would perhaps be if there were a crack in the head, but it would have to be a big one to pressurize the oil enough to make it climb up the filler tube !

The crank, pistons, bearings and rockers etc. are force fed oil by the oil pump but that's not the problem here, the crankcase needs to be ventilated otherwise it will be pressurised by the small amount of piston gas bypass you always get, especially if a little worn. Often the crank is at a slight vacuum as the crankcase is ventilated into the inlet manifold.

 

[freqmikey]

The crank, pistons, bearings and rockers etc. are force fed oil by the oil pump but that's not the problem here, the crankcase needs to be ventilated otherwise it will be pressurised by the small amount of piston gas bypass you always get, especially if a little worn. Often the crank is at a slight vacuum as the crankcase is ventilated into the inlet manifold.

Exactly...as I said, it's not really a pressurized system...yes there's pressure between the oil pump and the internals of the rocker shaft and crank, but the rest of it is really just splash lubed... the filler cap isn't sealed and neither is the rocker cover, though the gasses are vented into the inlet manifold...So there must be either a huge pressure build up in the crankcase OR a very strong vacuum effect drawing at the oil to make it climb that high up the filler neck ... that's a lot of oil, so it weigh's a fair bit - Any chance of some pictures, or a video of it happening ? just for a bit of perspective .... Another of the possibles on this one might be if you had the breather that is on the filler tube connected to the inlet manifold without it going through the emmision control diagpram...I guess that might suck the oil up the filler neck ?????

 

[Heinie1978]

Hello All

Thanks for all the replies so far.
But I want to explain my breather system...I have photos, but they're not with me currently.
I don't have a positive crankcase valve on my engine, but....
Firstly I cleaned the breather on the rocker cover.

Then I used a 110mm piece of pvc piping with stoppers at both ends and drilled two 13mm holes in the one end.
Put two 13mm pipe fittings in there and connected both with 13mm hoses.
On the inside I connected a piece of aliminium pipe to the one fitting and drilled holes in the bottom of this piece of pipe.
The other pipe fitting I left short.
The short fitting is connected to the manifold inlet, where the normal breather used to be connected and the longer fitting is connected to a T piece which splits the hose to go to the rocker cover breather as well as the breather on the oil filler pipe.
Will post photos tommorrow.

To me the manifold will suck air throught the breather and in the vacuum caused by the pvc piping should suck up any blow by/gas/air that are released due to internal engine pressure.

Google the phrase "oil catch can" to find some basic info.

As to my mechanic.......I don't think he has a pc, let alone e -mail.
But seeing that I stay in South Africa, I dont have the "privelage" to use Britpart parts.
The head was skimmed at a engineering works and checked for cracks etc. It was fitted to the engine by my mechanic, but only because I didn't have the time and torque wrench at that time.

I am going to fill up the engine with a measured quantity of oil and then see what happens...but first payday has to come..
H

 

[Snagger]

My guess is that your "advanced breather" is sucking the oil out of the sump - refit the standard breather (cleaned out and serviced). The problem may be compounded by overfilling; removing the sump to check that the dipstick "HI" mark is about 12/" below the bottom of the block (and thus below the top baffle plate of the sump) would be useful, and remember that you should check oil levels when the oil is fully warmed up - you'd be surprised how much it expands as it heats up, and filling to the HI mark when cold will result in the big ends running in a n overflowing sump when hot.

 

[Georgedubya]

Hello All

Thanks for all the replies so far.
But I want to explain my breather system...I have photos, but they're not with me currently.
I don't have a positive crankcase valve on my engine, but....
Firstly I cleaned the breather on the rocker cover.

Then I used a 110mm piece of pvc piping with stoppers at both ends and drilled two 13mm holes in the one end.
Put two 13mm pipe fittings in there and connected both with 13mm hoses.
On the inside I connected a piece of aliminium pipe to the one fitting and drilled holes in the bottom of this piece of pipe.
The other pipe fitting I left short.
The short fitting is connected to the manifold inlet, where the normal breather used to be connected and the longer fitting is connected to a T piece which splits the hose to go to the rocker cover breather as well as the breather on the oil filler pipe.
Will post photos tommorrow.

To me the manifold will suck air throught the breather and in the vacuum caused by the pvc piping should suck up any blow by/gas/air that are released due to internal engine pressure.

Google the phrase "oil catch can" to find some basic info.

As to my mechanic.......I don't think he has a pc, let alone e -mail.
But seeing that I stay in South Africa, I dont have the "privelage" to use Britpart parts.
The head was skimmed at a engineering works and checked for cracks etc. It was fitted to the engine by my mechanic, but only because I didn't have the time and torque wrench at that time.

I am going to fill up the engine with a measured quantity of oil and then see what happens...but first payday has to come..
H

Hi, its me again. To maybe save you some mess (and money) if I put the reugulation 6.85 litres of oil (6.0 without oil filter change) into the sump, it comes up to around the proper 'full' mark - and pukes the oil everywhere when run at reasonable revs!

If I remove 2.0 litres, so that the level is now around the low/minimum mark, it appears okay.

My engine has NO breathing system fitted to it so I don't think that is going to be your problem.

I would have liked to have discussed this problem with your mechanic - maybe I could phone him? IDD from the UK isn't too expensive. Of course, if you have his address, I will write - though this will slow things down a bit!

Just a quick thought: When you had the work done on your engine, did you have new Camshaft bushes fitted?

As for the 'Britparts' I just wondered whether they exported to your country - oh well, thats another possibility covered.

Hope to exchange more on this with you.
Best wishes
George.

 

[Snagger]

My engine has NO breathing system fitted to it so I don't think that is going to be your problem.

It must have some kind of breather, even if it's just venting rather than connected to the induction system. It's usually on a tall pipe ahead of the distributor (which people oft mistake for a filler tube - the filler is on the rocker cover). If you have blanked that off, no wonder you get problems - the crank case pressure will increase until oil is forced out through any weak spots like seals and gaskets.

 

[Heinie1978]

Hey George.
My mechanic only worked on the engine once, hasn't seen it in 2 years. My other cars see him more frequent.
But no, cam bushes not replaced, only cyl head skimmed and gasket replaced, oh, and the rings were replaced.
Bores were round and right.
Breqather system doesn't suck oil from sump, not strong enough vacuum for that.

Snagger, my engine has no oil filler on the rocker cover, I think mine is older, but it has the filler on the side with a small breather fitting on the side of the filler pipe.

I don't think Britpart exports to here, although it would be nice to find a source for parts.
Our only real source is a company called RoverLand and I suspect they get it imported. But we also have other companies that source some other non rover brands....stay away....

My engine has been blowing oil out before I fitted the breather system...when i bought it, it had no bretaher system, the one on the oil filler pipe, was blanked off and the one on the rocker cover was connected with some thing resembling a pipe to the air filter above the carb.

Therefor I thought that was the reason for the blowby and created my current breather system.
H

 

[Snagger]

The rings may have their gaps in line, causing pressurising problems. The slurping noise is significant, though. I suspect that the oil level is too high and that the big ends are splashing around in it. You need to check the dipstick is indicating correctly - the stick may be too short or the tube may be too long - I have this problem on my Tdi, with the low mark sitting where the high mark should be.

 

[littlelegs]

Hello All

Thanks for all the replies so far.
But I want to explain my breather system...I have photos, but they're not with me currently.
I don't have a positive crankcase valve on my engine, but....
Firstly I cleaned the breather on the rocker cover.

Then I used a 110mm piece of pvc piping with stoppers at both ends and drilled two 13mm holes in the one end.
Put two 13mm pipe fittings in there and connected both with 13mm hoses.
On the inside I connected a piece of aliminium pipe to the one fitting and drilled holes in the bottom of this piece of pipe.
The other pipe fitting I left short.
The short fitting is connected to the manifold inlet, where the normal breather used to be connected and the longer fitting is connected to a T piece which splits the hose to go to the rocker cover breather as well as the breather on the oil filler pipe.
Will post photos tommorrow.

To me the manifold will suck air throught the breather and in the vacuum caused by the pvc piping should suck up any blow by/gas/air that are released due to internal engine pressure.

Google the phrase "oil catch can" to find some basic info.

As to my mechanic.......I don't think he has a pc, let alone e -mail.
But seeing that I stay in South Africa, I dont have the "privelage" to use Britpart parts.
The head was skimmed at a engineering works and checked for cracks etc. It was fitted to the engine by my mechanic, but only because I didn't have the time and torque wrench at that time.

I am going to fill up the engine with a measured quantity of oil and then see what happens...but first payday has to come..
H

If I'm reading this correctly then both the rocker vent/filler and the crank vent/filler are tee'd together so that the crank/rocker cover are under a complete vacuum with no fresh air getting in? If this is the case then it could explain seals and gaskets blowing and subsequent oil leaks! It needs an in and an out!

 

[Snagger]

I think you'd be surprised at how quick the airflow is up your "advanced breather". The induction will be sucking continuously, while the rocker cover breather allows fresh air into the engine. The continuous high airflow up the crank case breather will drag splashed oil up with it and make a mess. It may not be the root cause, but I certainly don't think it's helping.

 

[MPi-KMS-72]

It must have some kind of breather, even if it's just venting rather than connected to the induction system. It's usually on a tall pipe ahead of the distributor (which people oft mistake for a filler tube - the filler is on the rocker cover).

On the older 2.25s that IS the filler, there is a breather on the valve cover but no oil fil. Ca. 1980 or so with the 5MB engines and red engine blocks etc they adopted the valve cover with the oil filler.

 

[littlelegs]

If I'm reading this correctly then both the rocker vent/filler and the crank vent/filler are tee'd together so that the crank/rocker cover are under a complete vacuum with no fresh air getting in? If this is the case then it could explain seals and gaskets blowing and subsequent oil leaks! It needs an in and an out!

Even with an air inlet you still need the PCV to keep the vacuum under control.

 

[Heinie1978]

Hello All
Here is some pictures of my breather system, but I don't have any pics of it being installed,but "Littlelegs" gets the idea.
Do I need a source of fresh air in there as well, so that it doesn't cause a vacuum and therefor maybe suck up the oil?
Will check into that, maybe it sorts out the problem.
H

 

[Georgedubya]

Hey guys, we seem to be going around in circles a bit on this one!

Forgetting Heinie's problem for a bit and using my vehicle as an example (same apparent fault remember) my engine has been fully rebuilt (twice actually!). And ALL of the following have been carried out:

1. Rebore, new pistons/rings fitted - correctly gapped and spaced.
2. New Camshaft bearings. (Twice)
3. New oil pump.
4. New distributor.
5. New baffle plate at base of oil filler/breather.
6. Crank ground/new shells fitted.
7. Head skimmed.
8. New radiator.
9. New water pump.
10. New timing chain.
11. Both oil filler breather and rocker cap thoroughly cleaned out in gasoline.
12. Valve clearances correctly set.
13. Valve timing set correctly.
14. Ignition timing set correctly.
15. New seals and gaskets throughout.
16. New oil feed pipe to cylinder head.

As you would expect with a rebuild of this magnitude, pretty well all that needs changing/setting/machining etc, has been done - and STILL I have this oil problem!

My problem started AFTER the first rebuild when the cam-bushes had been replaced the first time and I'm wondering whether damage has been caused around the front cam bush/oil gallery area (at the base of the breather/filler neck) which shows itself ONLY when the engine warms up? A hairline crack for instance?

Well, I don't wish to hijack Heinie's thread - but as you can see, my delving into a similair problem as his has been somewhat comprehensive.

Hope the above helps?

Best Wishes
George.