2.25 petrol engine problems

[Georgedubya]

Hello all.
I do agree with George.
This is on the other hand a very wierd occurance.
As for me, bought a battery charger yesterday and once I'm back hoem, will charge bat and run engine without breather and see what happens and will come back with my findings.
As for the breather, I will drill a hole in it and fit it with one of those smaller breathers, so that it can not cause a vacuum.
Also see what this can do.

The breather is connected next to the radiator against the left hand wheel well inner. Fitted there with a pvc pipe bracket, looks rather neat.
Seeing that we have a long weekend, I'm currently at the in laws and far far away from my landy.

Cheers all, will be chatting later again.

Heinie

A procedure you may like to try Heinie (one I've tried myself).

Remove the breather/filler cap and rocker cap then start the engine and, after a few seconds which should let the oil circulate properly, try picking the revs up to about 1/2 - 3/4 max and holding them there for a minute or so.. (do this undere the bonnet using the throttle lever at the carb if you can - so that you can more closely monitor the breather/filler tube). With the oil 'cold' all will probaby be well.

Let the engine warm right up, then try the same thing again. If you're having the same problem as me, the oil will begin to rise up the filler/breather tube. (This will only happen with the full 6.85 litres of oil in the sump).

Take a look at the oil as its coming up the breather tube - is it frothy? (Mine is).

Assuming you do get the oil coming up the filler neck hot (but not cold!) then your symptoms are just like mine and, as I have NO crankcase compression whatsoever (and I bet you don't have much, either!) then I reckon we can put that idea to bed!

Personally, I still favour the 'crack opening up when the engine's hot' theory (but only because its mine! lol).

As I've said on this thread before, I have no breather so I KNOW it can't be that! <G>.

If you want to mail me direct, please do so at [email protected]

Good luck.
George.

 

[DarrenH]

could just be windage, rather than actual compression in the crank case. there are several ways to reduce that but then there must be hundreds of thousands of 2.25 that dont have this problem. i guessing you are just annoyed (george) that everyone is suggesting ways to reduce the symptoms, rather than determining or treating the cause.

 

[Georgedubya]

could just be windage, rather than actual compression in the crank case. there are several ways to reduce that but then there must be hundreds of thousands of 2.25 that dont have this problem. i guessing you are just annoyed (george) that everyone is suggesting ways to reduce the symptoms, rather than determining or treating the cause.

I'm a little ticked-off that people keep going for this magic 'crankcase compression' fix, when both Heinie and myself have pointed out that we ain't got CC!

And then of course, there's the breather issue! How can something I don't have be causing me a problem? And also, how come the engine spilt not a drop (from the filler at any rate!) until the first rebuild?

As I said, we're circling and it appears that folks are just guessing............

 

[freqmikey]

I'm a little ticked-off that people keep going for this magic 'crankcase compression' fix, when both Heinie and myself have pointed out that we ain't got CC!

And then of course, there's the breather issue! How can something I don't have be causing me a problem? And also, how come the engine spilt not a drop (from the filler at any rate!) until the first rebuild?

As I said, we're circling and it appears that folks are just guessing............

George, part of the problem here is that while you both have similar engine faults it's not neccacarily the same cause...and yeah, speaking for myself I'm guessing because without having the bits in front of me that's all I can do, guess and suggest !
It seems reasonable to suggest that Heinie's breather system will act as a vacuum chamber until he fits an airway into the chamber - the vacuum created in his catch can would easily be enough to lift a couple of kilo's of oil up the filler etc...it has to be ruled out at least. That's not to say it's THE solution because we cant know for sure if it's the only fault he has anyway.

Yours is clearly being caused another (though maybe similar) way as you have no breather system...Oil weighs a kilo a litre so 'something' substantial must be lifting it to make it climb all the way up the filler -
I imagine with both of them at that stage it'll be oozing out of the dizz tube too...nasty...
As always there are more questions to ask to eliminate possible causes. Is your sump dented...this would raise the oil level to closer to the crank = more windage. Are there baffles in your sump ? Is the oil frothy because it is full of air...or is it a white/grey frothy mess...this could indicate a crack as you suggest...

 

[littlelegs]

I'm a little ticked-off that people keep going for this magic 'crankcase compression' fix, when both Heinie and myself have pointed out that we ain't got CC!

And then of course, there's the breather issue! How can something I don't have be causing me a problem? And also, how come the engine spilt not a drop (from the filler at any rate!) until the first rebuild?

As I said, we're circling and it appears that folks are just guessing............

You're not obliged to act on any free suggestions here, the idea is you pick and try what suits you! I've consulted my crystal ball about your engine that tells me the rebuild is a clue! You've never heard of brainstorming then where ideas are bounced around and sometimes the most unlikely suggestion is the solution. If I could see, touch and listen to every vehicle with a problem I could solve a large percentage straight away but I can't do that on a forum where information is very limited and often misleading so I suggest you take it to a garage where someone can look at it.

 

[Georgedubya]

You're not obliged to act on any free suggestions here, the idea is you pick and try what suits you! I've consulted my crystal ball about your engine that tells me the rebuild is a clue! You've never heard of brainstorming then where ideas are bounced around and sometimes the most unlikely suggestion is the solution. If I could see, touch and listen to every vehicle with a problem I could solve a large percentage straight away but I can't do that on a forum where information is very limited and often misleading so I suggest you take it to a garage where someone can look at it.

There's and old saying that free advice is often not worth taking - and sadly so many forums etc on The Internet prove that over and over (though I'm not saying that ANY of the advice given on this thread falls into that category!). But its worth bearing in mind.............

I've rebuilt many, many engines during nearly 40 years as a vehicle mechanic and never in all that time, have I had one perform like this one. So maybe its a professional pride thing that makes me seem short-tempered.

I take on board all the suggestions regarding lack of space etc in the crankcases that may be causing this oil leakage problem - but it never used to do it, so why do it now? As I've said several times, I have no breather system on my engine so I know that isn't an issue. However, like you, I suffer from a defective crystal ball and thus far I am still at a loss as to what may be causing the problem. But I will sort it out eventually and hopefully can then help Heinie with his problem unless he's sorted if beforehand.

My major concern is that the clowns I got to do my cam-bushes the first time may have damaged the block casting in a way that is not easy to find. If that is the case, then all I can do is run the vehicle this summer and tear it down again during the winter and examine everything in minute detail to see whether my theory is correct.

Just a few final points, my sump is baffled (not as much as I am though!) and the 'froth' is air bubbles NOT condensation sludge. If - as I did yesterday - I drive the vehicle steady and with the oil level set around the 'low-minimum' mark all is well. But with the correct amount of oil in, it would have gone everywhere.

Regards
George.

 

[freqmikey]

My major concern is that the clowns I got to do my cam-bushes the first time may have damaged the block casting in a way that is not easy to find. If that is the case, then all I can do is run the vehicle this summer and tear it down again during the winter and examine everything in minute detail to see whether my theory is correct.

Just a few final points, my sump is baffled (not as much as I am though!) and the 'froth' is air bubbles NOT condensation sludge. If - as I did yesterday - I drive the vehicle steady and with the oil level set around the 'low-minimum' mark all is well. But with the correct amount of oil in, it would have gone everywhere.

Regards
George.

Slowly, we are getting to the root of this one...You may be right about the block being damaged when the new camshaft bushes were fitted...but it seems unlikely that anything cam related would create a force strong enough to lift the oil that high.
Perhaps the daftest question, but it hasn't been asked yet so, is your oil pressure relief valve working ?? ...I'm thinking about back pressure from the oil pump ??? based on the fact that, in the sump, between the low and high mark on the dipper, there is only the crank and the oil pick up pipe and oily air...one of those things is presumably pushing the oil up the tube ....

 

[littlelegs]

Slowly, we are getting to the root of this one...You may be right about the block being damaged when the new camshaft bushes were fitted...but it seems unlikely that anything cam related would create a force strong enough to lift the oil that high.
Perhaps the daftest question, but it hasn't been asked yet so, is your oil pressure relief valve working ?? ...I'm thinking about back pressure from the oil pump ??? based on the fact that, in the sump, between the low and high mark on the dipper, there is only the crank and the oil pick up pipe and oily air...one of those things is presumably pushing the oil up the tube ....

You might have been closer than you think but not oil pressure, oil level! This has been bugging me all along with me assuming you were all happy with the oil capacity but as the problem of the oil whipping up goes away with a lower oil level, it seems very plausable. There are a number of things that could cause over capacity. The stated capacity on my Disco is similar but I know I never put that amount back in on an oil change by a litre so either the stated amount is wrong or it doesn't all drain out properly! The 2.25 can also have different capacity oil filters. You might also have a dent in the sump reducing the capacity. It has been mentioned that draining 2 litres brings the level down to the low mark, my Disco only takes half a litre.

Now this would normally show up as a high dipstick reading but what if the vehicles are not on the level or the dipstick is not calibrated properly or is the wrong one or doesn't fit properly so that it consistantly shows a lower level than it actually has?! It's all possible but I'm only guessing! If the problem goes away with a lower level then why not just do that, it's not that critical?

 

[freqmikey]

... this would normally show up as a high dipstick reading but what if the vehicles are not on the level or the dipstick is not calibrated properly or is the wrong one or doesn't fit properly so that it consistantly shows a lower level than it actually has?! It's all possible but I'm only guessing! If the problem goes away with a lower level then why not just do that, it's not that critical?

I'm there with you on the last point...as long as there's some oil getting to the rocker shaft it'll find it's way back down and lube everything on the way...a bit of dip and splash from the crank and it'll be fine with a low level on the dipstick - I guess it's one of those buggin problems that George (and originally Heinie) just needs to know an answer too.

The wrong dipstick or tube idea sounded ok but the amount of oil he's put in is about right (I had to check tho ) .... dented sump was ruled out - I'm wondering now about idea's of the engine being on the yonk a bit...different sized engine mounts?? or a duff one ???...that might put the oil far enough over for it to be dragged up more by the crank ??? .. We're brainstorming, guessing, going round in circles, or desperate to help a fellow landy owner out ??? I cant decide, but I reakon we're getting close

 

[littlelegs]

I'm there with you on the last point...as long as there's some oil getting to the rocker shaft it'll find it's way back down and lube everything on the way...a bit of dip and splash from the crank and it'll be fine with a low level on the dipstick - I guess it's one of those buggin problems that George (and originally Heinie) just needs to know an answer too.

The wrong dipstick or tube idea sounded ok but the amount of oil he's put in is about right (I had to check tho ) .... dented sump was ruled out - I'm wondering now about idea's of the engine being on the yonk a bit...different sized engine mounts?? or a duff one ???...that might put the oil far enough over for it to be dragged up more by the crank ??? .. We're brainstorming, guessing, going round in circles, or desperate to help a fellow landy owner out ??? I cant decide, but I reakon we're getting close

Ah but we're trying to avoid the crank dipping and splashing, the oil pump will feed oil through the oilways to lub all moving parts so apart from surging there will always be pressure and oil circulation even when quite low. This is not a lawn mower you know!

 

[freqmikey]

This is not a lawn mower you know!

Fair point....that's a seperate attachment FOR a landie, not a design feature of it

 

[Snagger]

Some people seem to get very aggressive when being aided by others for free, and I wonder if they are worth the effort.

To get oil emanating from the filler tube, you must have either a pressurised crank case or have excessively high oil level. It is as simple as that. I have already mentioned the issues that could cause overfilling several pages ago, but to recap, they are: filling with the vehicle not level, filling when the oil is cold, the dipstick being the incorrect length (from a different engine - they do fit each others' tubes), the dipstick guide tube being the wrong length.

Crank case pressure could be from a head gasket failure, cracked bores, pistons or head, poorly sealing valves, worn valve guides, faults with the piston rings, problems with the bores or incorrect valve timing or tappet adjustment.

Just because an engine has been rebuilt (or any other assembly, for that matter), it doesn't mean it's not a mechanical fault. I do all my own gearbox, engine and axle work because I haven't had a single recon unit built properly, despite a multitude of different companies doing the work; in my experience, unless you go to a top shelf organisation like Turner engineering, and pay corresponding prices, what you get back is a pile of scrap. If your recon engine cost less than about £3000, then it's been botched.

 

[littlelegs]

I missed Snagger's previous reply on oil level so that makes three of us for too much oil.

 

[freqmikey]

Can I just try and create some clarity here, just because this thread has been bumping along dealing with two seperate engines...similar faults...but potentially different causes...
I'm not worried about the personalities, it's the faults with the Landrovers I'm bothered by

SO ... Thread starter Hienie's engine - the one with the home-brew catch can.. Cause of fault, vacuum pressure (?) from the manifold drawing oil into the catch can
Repair = try it with an air vent in the catch can - and or less oil ... and report back with the result of that experiment..

George's engine, no breather and allegedly fully rebuilt. Cause = too much oil and or excess crankcase pressure or windage. Repair = Consider further re-build (?) but certainly examine engine internals more closely...rings etc ...

 

[Georgedubya]

I must apologise if I've ruffled a few feathers with my posts on here. As I said, as a professional mechanic I hate having problems like this that I can't sort and that defy 'logic'! Also, its possible that some people on here (and on other forums too!) really aren't in touch with the realities of the Infernal combustion engine. But As I've said before, Free advice etc................

Not getting too irate about 'Freqmikey's' use of the word 'alleged' <VBG>, I will re-state that my engine HAS been fully rebuilt (by yours truly) The only work I didn't do myself, was the new cam bushes, the rebore the crank grind and the head skim.

The crank was checked the second time around by an engineering company I trust and have used for years. I personally gapped the piston rings and checked the piston clearances etc.

I take on board this 'windage' thing, but surely, with so much air being displaced, you'd feel it as pressure from the filler neck or rocker cap?

Also, I ALWAYS dip engine oil (especially in a case like this) on level ground. Dipstick aside, I originally put the stated amount of oil (6.85 Litres) into a DRY engine - and it showed correct on the stick.

Regarding my idea of a 'crack', if it were in the top of the main oil gallery (under the camshaft and at the base of the filler neck) then to me it is quite possible that, when warm (with thinner oil and opened up crack) oil at full line pressure could flood into the area at the bottom of the filler neck, stop drain-back and cause oil to rise up the tube.

A point here, as soon as I drop the revs, the oil level in the tube falls rapidly - a case of too much oil somewhere rather than a pressure problem I reckon.

Finally, I did a pressure test (at the switch) and on the guage you can see clearly when the valve opens and 'dumps' the excess oil.

Good 'un this, isn't it!

 

[DarrenH]

on a fresh build youd expect to feel a rythmic pulsing from whatever crank breather system is fitted, not pressure as such as that implies its only exhaling, but positive and negative waves in rythm with the engine revs. it will also migrate up or down the breather system with change in engine revs (on yours i think i am right in saying its just a vented filler cap on the filler tube?) it only becomes positive pressure when you start losing cylinder sealing.

the pistons moving up and down cause pockets of high and low pressure around the crank, additionally the crank counterweights slicing through standing oil in the sump allow the oil to defy gravity and become/ remain airborn all the time the engine is running. i expect underfilling with oil lowered the level to the sump baffle region, so the pickup pipe was still submerged and happy but the crank wasnt slicing through the oil.

not really that helpful, just stating what it is. so the question is what could you have done during the rebuild to make windage worse.

 

[freqmikey]

dont even get slightly irate George ! ... I used the word 'allegedly' only because none of us out here in interweb world could 'know' for certain .. it could have been that your motor was rebuilt by others and you'd been lied too about what had been done - If you've done the work yourself tho we'll take it that it has been done...sorry whatever

And yeah, you're right ...it is a good un this one... I'm looking forward to knowing what was up, so I can imagine how you feel

 

[Georgedubya]

on a fresh build youd expect to feel a rythmic pulsing from whatever crank breather system is fitted, not pressure as such as that implies its only exhaling, but positive and negative waves in rythm with the engine revs. it will also migrate up or down the breather system with change in engine revs (on yours i think i am right in saying its just a vented filler cap on the filler tube?) it only becomes positive pressure when you start losing cylinder sealing.

the pistons moving up and down cause pockets of high and low pressure around the crank, additionally the crank counterweights slicing through standing oil in the sump allow the oil to defy gravity and become/ remain airborn all the time the engine is running. i expect underfilling with oil lowered the level to the sump baffle region, so the pickup pipe was still submerged and happy but the crank wasnt slicing through the oil.

not really that helpful, just stating what it is. so the question is what could you have done during the rebuild to make windage worse.

I understand where you're coming from with this, but as I've said before, when the engine was a little 'tired' and smoking a bit, there was no problem - I fixed it and 'voila!' problem!

As for 'freqmikey' - okay then, I'll let you off (justthis once though! lol).

The vehicle goes back into service this weekend, so unless Heinie comes up with an answer, it'll be next winter's service/tinker-time before I get any further with it (if, in fact, I do!). But, like the good mechanic that I (thought I?) am, I'll keep poking around and see what I can dig up.

Kindest regards all
George.

 

[Heinie1978]

Hello All

Bought a battery trickle charger last week. Had it charging for three days, but the bat in the Landie and F@ckall happens.......engin, e turns over, but not enough juice to strart the engine.
Now isn't that typical Landie....?
Anyway, checked the breather system, it does have a means of sucking atmospheric air before the breather. But in the breather/catch can none, so will put breather in there as soon as I get the engine running again.
P.S. By the way...I'm a South African Biology teacher teaching Cambridge biology to our youth.....and as teacher get paid very close to ...........@#$ (nothing) it's not always possible to just go out, buy a new battery and just crank the ******, thus I urge all you fellow Landie Lovers to please bear with me.....it's a timely process.
I also feel that WE all should not loose our cool......(you know who you all are). We have a serious unforseen unexplainable set of problems, and we are ALL trying to find some sort of explanation.

So, for all the new comers to this thread...
We have two 2.25 petrol engines, both are blowing out oil at high(above 2500) revs.
None of the engines seem to have any sump compression, none found on sump compreesion tests.
One engine has basic engine breathing....George?
Mine has a breather system...read back to find out more.
There is NO reason for the oil blowing out so we, I, want to know all possible explanations possible so I/we can utelize them and find a source.

So, as soon as I get my F>>>@#$@# ken battery to work, I'll test some of the advice given and let you know.
I think I should start a new thread on batteries..

Have a wonderfull rest of whats left of the weekend.

Sincere regeards and landie love to all (red wine speaking)
Heinie

 

[littlelegs]

Hello All

Bought a battery trickle charger last week. Had it charging for three days, but the bat in the Landie and F@ckall happens.......engin, e turns over, but not enough juice to strart the engine.
Now isn't that typical Landie....?
Anyway, checked the breather system, it does have a means of sucking atmospheric air before the breather. But in the breather/catch can none, so will put breather in there as soon as I get the engine running again.
P.S. By the way...I'm a South African Biology teacher teaching Cambridge biology to our youth.....and as teacher get paid very close to ...........@#$ (nothing) it's not always possible to just go out, buy a new battery and just crank the ******, thus I urge all you fellow Landie Lovers to please bear with me.....it's a timely process.
I also feel that WE all should not loose our cool......(you know who you all are). We have a serious unforseen unexplainable set of problems, and we are ALL trying to find some sort of explanation.

So, for all the new comers to this thread...
We have two 2.25 petrol engines, both are blowing out oil at high(above 2500) revs.
None of the engines seem to have any sump compression, none found on sump compreesion tests.
One engine has basic engine breathing....George?
Mine has a breather system...read back to find out more.
There is NO reason for the oil blowing out so we, I, want to know all possible explanations possible so I/we can utelize them and find a source.

So, as soon as I get my F>>>@#$@# ken battery to work, I'll test some of the advice given and let you know.
I think I should start a new thread on batteries..

Have a wonderfull rest of whats left of the weekend.

Sincere regeards and landie love to all (red wine speaking)
Heinie

Have you got a starting handle?