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TD5 cold start problem

No. Not even close. Have now decided its an air leak in the fuel system which allows the fuel/pressure to drain back to the tank, but have no idea why its worse when the ambient temp is low. I am suspecting the fuel filter housing, which can become porous with age. Still no idea why its worse when cold though - unless the contraction of material somehow affects it?

I have found it is ambient temp, not engine temp that dictates the situation though. Last couple of days been v.cold here, and I have dome maybe 300 miles. On 2 occasions yesterday it was hard to start although some engine heat was still showing on the temp gauge. Back in fuel filter area though it would have been fully cold....
 
Porny said:
.....Under the seat box, have a look at the main black relay and the plug it sits in. This supplies the power to the engine harness inc glow plugs. The relay should have a large brown wire into it, and a yellow and black wire amoung others. In the past, I have found the end of the brown wire (where it goes into the relay) completely green and corroded... which isn't good.


Ian
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I had this very problem a while ago; symptoms were intermittent no ECM or glowplug lights lit on dash and engine would turn over good style but not always start - it eventually failed completely in the local Focus carpark.

Wiggled the black main relay with ignition turned on; both above lamps lit and engine could then be started. Got truck home, pulled main relay to find it's connector pins corroded and when I pulled the socket, the brown wire connection broke off and the crimp receptacle was green and so badly corroded it itself fell apart. The wire itself had only been holding on by about a 1/3 of the internal strands which were also corroded and they broke when I removed the socket.

Cleaned up the relay pins, coated them with Vaseline and reterminated the broken wire with a suitable crimp from VWP and problem solved. Because of this, I pulled all the relays in the truck and made sure that everything was clean and making good contact. Haven't had any issues since.

That black relay's still worth a look if you haven't already...
 
there are similarities here to g7jtk , s thread about fuel pump whine - he cured his eventually with new injecter washers/seals ! - hopefully of some use to you if not already tried
 
Thanks to both for recent suggestions. I had the injector seals done about 3 months ago. Also replaced the fuel valve block on the side of the cylinder head as there were signs of a slight leak. None of which made any difference. As for the black relay, all looks bright and clean, no evidence of corrosion at all.
During last few days of warmer weather, car has started perfectly. Cooler this morning, but above freezing, it took two attempts.

Over Christmas I have decided to replace the fuel filter housing and currently await its arrival. I'll let you know what the results are!
 
Ah sorry , i didnt re-read the whole thread again and had forgotten youd done the seals - will be keeping my fingers crossed you post up soome good news soon then - happy new year
 
Replaced the fuel filter and its housing yesterday. Drove it around for ten miles to ensure no problems with air in the system.

Took 3 goes to start it this morning and it is not less than 5 degrees temp I would say. So it wasn't that either.

Tonight it's going to Hillendale on its holidays for the night to see if their diagnostic equipment can find anything wrong. Weather forecast is for minus 2, so it should be suitable conditions. Of course, Sod's Law says it'll start on the button for them!
 
Hi
I am very interested in this one as i had the same things going on with a disco TD5 a couple of years ago in spain and i spent ages trying to rectify it but to no avail in the end we sold it but in the mornings in winter the only way it would start was by continous cranking with the foot to the floor and then it was fine for the rest of the day and i replaced everything even the injector harnes and the seals and also checked the timing which had slipped and was a slight improvment when it was adjusted but will interesting to see how you get on
Good Luck
Gary
 
What about the battery - especially its capacity (I think it needs to be above 100 AH) and its electrolyte level? Are all the lights on your dashboard are lit when cranking? If the voltage drops below 9V the ECU may restarts itself causing something similar to what you are experience ...
 
The trip to the main dealer has provided three results. The first was that their computer could not talk to my ECU. I was surprised as two other Landrover garages had managed to communicate quite easily with their diagnostic machines, Rovercom and Autocom I think, but Hillendale insisted that it was "throwing out" their attempts.

Moving on, they said that the fuel system definately had air in it, due to the noise the pump was making on start up. They would have gone with injector seals and washers had I not already told them I had them replaced a few months earlier. The alternative is apparently a porosity in the cylinder head itself! They have replaced heads before due to this, but cold starting wasn't a symptom. The most common sign was usually the sump oil level appearing to increase as the sump filled with diesel. I wondered if it was possible to pressurise the head overnight to measure any pressure drop over night for example, but no such kit exists apparently. The implication is that you are doing that every night anyway with fuel.

He also pointed out that 3 out of 4 of my heater plugs were not working, and the fourth was weak. So I had those replaced. This morning, not very cold, it started second time - so that's made no difference either.

In summary then, it would seem that I may have a porous cylinder head which allows the fuel to drain back every night. The oil level on the stick is currently a quarter inch over full, but could have been that way since last oil change (never got round to buying a litre jug.) It's due a change now, so I shall do it and then watch the oil level very closely to see if it does indeed increase with time.

Why this only manifests itself with a cold engine is still a mystery to me - unless it's a combination of air and lack of healthy glow plugs? Don't know - tired of guessing.
 
Any updates on this issue? have you had the injectors tested? to check for excessive return? we have vehicles in at work and they wont start or have poor starting due to excessive return to the tank
Will
 
I'm told that although TD4's and TD6's can both have this leakback problem, TD5's don't due to the design of the injector being totally different. Mine struggled to start a couple of days ago when it was about minus 5, but I got it going in the end. I was late so I chased it up the motorway for 40 miles to a meeting. Was in there about 45 mins - an hour max, and when I came out I thought it was going to be an AA breakdown job. The temp gauge was at the top of the blue, so not "cold" - but the thing would not fire at all. Just spin. It took several minutes to get it to fire up. The worst yet. It was still very cold of course - this confirming that engine temp appears to have nothing to do with it - its ambient temp that makes the difference!

I've been away for the weekend in North Yorkshire. Cold but not freezing, and the thing has fired up instantly each time of asking.

Did you see my other post about the sensor in the TD5 airbox. It costs £192 and nobody seems to know what it does!

Continuing desperate.
 
My problem is getting worse, which may be due to the current low temperatures we are experiencing. I have twice been on the point of calling the AA to get me home recently when it has finally decided to start and run perfectly! Oddly enough, on both occasions the engine has been slightly warm, but on a very cold day....

Nobody appears to have any ideas as to the problem, so I have a new plan:It is apparent that the engine is not getting fuel. From the noise at the pump it seems like there is air in the system - but from where? - there are no leaks on the floor etc. So I intend to make up a rig to pressurise the fuel system in the cylinder head. Pump it up to 100 psi with a bicycle pump and see if it maintains that pressure overnight. If it does, then cylinder head and injectors must be OK? That would then indicate the pump to be at fault, having already replaced the filter housing. The pump itself is less than 6 months old, but what else can it be? I wonder if the pump might be blocked by something which has found its way into the tank? What I'm hearing may be the pump cavitating rather than trying to push air? Cold weather might make the diesel that bit thicker to pump through a blocked filter? As you can see - still clutching at straws, but determined. Any comments or advice on this plan would be greatly appreciated.

Dave
 
well 10/10 for perseverance , every time i see this thread pop up i come back hoping to see you are finally posting up that youve solved it ! - nothing constructive i can add unfortunately apart from best wishes
 
I've had same problem with mine since turbo died on it last year, it will take minimum of 3-4 attempts to start it when cold usually while pumping accelerator and when it does start seems to only start on one or two cylinders initially and has to be left running for a few minutes else it will not rev and if you do try to drive it without leaving it to warm up long enough will lose all power at the slightest incline, however mine is also difficult to start when warm, procedure then is to dip clutch and floor accelarator, the starter will sound slow as if battery has died but will kick it up, I too have replaced the lift pump all fuel pipes, pressure block, injector harness, temp sender and MAF, only one I have not done yet that local landy specialist suggested is the MAP sensor in the inlet manifold, dont know wether thats any help to you?
 
OLDSKOOL said:
well 10/10 for perseverance , every time i see this thread pop up i come back hoping to see you are finally posting up that youve solved it ! - nothing constructive i can add unfortunately apart from best wishes
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Thank you for your kind thoughts. My problem is that nobody has an answer and even the local dealer appears reluctant to help with the thing. When it does finally fail to start, I would be at a loss to know to where I should direct the man with the recovery vehicle Other than somewhere warm until Spring?? Anyway, tonight I have rigged up my pressure rig. One good thing about recent history is that I've got lots of decent landrover bits to rob pipes and unions from. One correction to earler note though - I did mention 100 psi test pressure, which may be a little high as the pump only delivers 4 bar, so I'll stick with 50. Watch this space!

Dave
 
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I may be getting nearer!
The motor hadn't turned over the weekend - during which time it had been pretty cold and frosty. I disconnected the line from the tank at the valve block and it was full of diesel - so it aint draining back! In fact it suggests it isn't doing anything without the pump running? So it could be as cold as it likes, but if I dont try to start it there will be no symptoms when I come back and try it later when its got warmer weather?
I put my pressure rig onto that fuel line and turned on the ignition. After a moments natural hesitation, the gauge was quickly around to 60psi! I switched off and watched the diesel drain back through the clear tube. It seemed to do that in spurts, not smoothly as one might suspect, if at all?

The very nice man at Windmill landrover has suggested that the snap connectors favoured by Landrover are quite capable of letting air in to the system whilst remaining diesel tight! You therefore have no chance looking for a fault with a pressure rig! Which is why nobody has one apparently. So he has suggested the bundle of pipes (4 off) that go into the top of the tank as being at fault. Thankyou Landrover. Pipe set costs about £100 and they are on order. I am now off to cut a hole in the boot floor to get at the tank because there is no way I am dropping the tank out this week - and then again next week if it doesn't work and I have to replace the pump again. Once again, Landrover should have provided this access panel - like on the Disco.

I will advise any change to symptoms, although if I'm not quick, the whole job will be on hold again until Autumn - optimistic or what?
 
Swapped out all the fuel lines last week. Made no difference. Pump's making a hell of a row so I decide to swap out the pump - again - thinking that the new pump must have been duff all along. Desperate or what? Got a used one off ebay for
only
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£100! Made no difference.

So reverting to science I have rigged up one of those glass in line fuel filters off an old series motor. If I rig it up between the valve block on the head and the fuel cooler, which is the first part of the fuel return from the head - I get a rush of fine air bubbles when I turn on the ignition. As the fuel line pressure builds up, so the bubbles become very small. But if I hold the glass filter upside down, they will float to the top and, when I turn off the ignition, and the line pressure drops -quite a large bubble appears at the top.So how can you draw air from within the head? If I repeat the exercise enough, I can almost fill the glass bowl with air, displacing all of the fuel!!

Any suggestions???

Change the car seems favourite at the moment.
 
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