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TD5 cold start problem

Yesterday I replaced the diesel filter because I could feel - and hear - air coming through it. The filter was 2 months old. After that I bled the system, which went well and the fuel pump ran quiet for the first time in weeks! Only lasted about ten miles however - the the pump was back to its normal squealing noises, indicating air in the system. So It bleads out OK with just ignition on without engine run. So is the "air" actually compression gas coming past the injector washers and aerating the fuel? Got stuck into that today and replaced washers and seals for the second time in 12 months. Unfortunately couldn't find anything wrong with the washers I took out. Once again, bled out beautifully afterwards without engine running. But ten miles down the road - the pump noise is back. Air back in the system.

I drove it home and fixed up a pressure gauge on the fuel system in the head, Pumped it up to 60 psi and over about ten minutes watched it drift down to less than 40. SO - does this pressure loss mean that I have a crack in the head (Landrover as well as my own!) which is somehow allowing combustion gas to get into the fuel rail? I'm told that TD5 heads can crack between injector pockets? Anybody else heard this?

It seems therefore that I may need a new head - unless anybody out there can point me to something I haven't yet tried? I must admit I am inclined to have the injectors tested before taking the plunge on a new head (£1500)
 
Hi Dave,
It does look and sound as if the head may well be the problem after all? It is concerning that the oil level in the sump is over the max marker too.
Regards,
Gary.
 
Well, here we are again. No cracks in the head (is this unique amongst TD5's ?) (Joke) But engineering shop remarked on air coming up from the injectors, between the coils of the return springs! No 1 and 5 were worst, but traces also coming from other three. He had never seen this before in a TD5. His test was to pressurise the fuel rail and immerse the head in a tank of water, which is why he saw air leaking through the valve where presumably you would see diesel any other time?

The injectors are now being tested by another company, who are sceptical that this result is the answer to my problem as it implies that air is getting into a pressurised rail. They also believe that symptom 1 would be fuel in the sump, which I haven't got. I can understand this logic, but this is the first sign I've seen of something not right in anything I've touched so far, and I'm committed to seeing it through. They also helpfully added that their equipment wasn't actually designed to check what I'm looking for ie air coming up through the injector, being more focussed upon fuel through the injector and out through the nozzle.

I hope to have the injectors back by Wednesday.
 
We could at last have the answer! The injector shop has rung this morning to say that the injectors have all failed test due to excessive leakback. In view of the consistency of deterioration, it is suspected that something has been through them - such as poor biodiesel etc. Not in my ownership certainly but I bought it with 40k on it. So all I need now is 5 new injectors..... but it is nice to find a smoking gun at long, long, last!
 
Just to bring this thread to a proper conclusion - my Landrover is now fixed! The car has run perfectly for the last few weeks, including mornings that had a good layer of frost across the car. 5 new injectors was an expensive trick - even DIY, but it works fine now.

Thanks to all who have contributed or just commented, even though nobody guessed the problem, it helped along the way!

Until the next time....
 
It has returned! After 18 months of faultless performance, my Cold start problem appears to have returned! Stopping for fuel during a 60 mile motorway trip it took two turns of the starter to get it to fire - and then yesterday morning first thing we had the spinning starter again with no fire. It started after spinning a few seconds on second turn of the key. This morning it spun for a short while and then fired up, then seemed to miss once before picking up again. From bitter experience I can only assume air in the diesel again - but from where this time? I can't hear the pump spinning up - so no air back there? Just seems to be draining back from the front again. Nothing for it but to break out the fuel rig I made last time (which I kept!) to see whether I'm right about the air in the fuel.

More anon.
 
I didn't think it was going to start at all this morning! There are no noises from the pump so I have to assume either a) no air in the system or (b) the pump isn't working! (Unlikely as it always runs fine once it fires) What other reasons are there which would allow it to spin without firing, but just in cold ambient air ie doesn't matter if engine is warm - so it isn't glow plugs? It's also something that doesn't bring the engine management light on - which probably rules out the pump as I think low fuel pressure would generate an idiot light? On Wednesday I have a Rovercom (and owner) at my disposal which I can plug in whilst its spinning, Wednesday morning being forecast to be very cold so I'm hoping it won't start. Is there a test that can be run at that time which would help us isolate the cause of the problem here or just rule out things it can't be??

All help gratefully received
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What about the starter motor this time? As Porny said on page 1 they do upset td5s. I think you get "crank sensor noisy" on diagnostics which is actually the starter motor brushes arcing inside the motor. My mates disco had a similar problem but the cranking speed was down- due to poor commutation on the brushes.
Try a quick bump start to see if that will get yours going?
 
I did swap the starter motor in response to Porny's suggestion, but it made no difference. I also had the crank angle sensor checked and that seemed to be OK. In fact that remains one of very few things I have not yet replaced - which is a good reason as any to change it now I suppose?

Today I have replaced the main relay from under the driver's seat primarily because as the engine was cranking over without firing, the speedo and the fuel guage were spiking. As I went to do this in minus three degrees this morning - the b****y thing started perfectly. I still changed it - and the fuel pump one for good measure. We will wait and see if it has made any difference. If we get to Christmas with out repeat of yesterday's almost flattened battery episodes - I will announce problem solved and slip quietly down behind the bar.....
 
Ibex said:
I did swap the starter motor in response to Porny's suggestion, but it made no difference. I also had the crank angle sensor checked and that seemed to be OK. In fact that remains one of very few things I have not yet replaced - which is a good reason as any to change it now I suppose?

Today I have replaced the main relay from under the driver's seat primarily because as the engine was cranking over without firing, the speedo and the fuel guage were spiking. As I went to do this in minus three degrees this morning - the b****y thing started perfectly. I still changed it - and the fuel pump one for good measure. We will wait and see if it has made any difference. If we get to Christmas with out repeat of yesterday's almost flattened battery episodes - I will announce problem solved and slip quietly down behind the bar.....
Click to expand...


Yes I did sit and read the whole thread! lol
I was thinking that as it was a 2nd hand starter you fitted 18months ago that it could perhaps now be the starter brushes. You changed loads of stuff when you had problems before so its unlikey you will need to look where you have already been
 
OK - we may be getting nearer! I replaced two of the three relays under drivers seat because, when it failed to fire last time, a sharp tap on said relays produced a crackle and a click from said relays (dont know which one) and the car started at next attempt. We only changed two of the three because that was all we had in new relays. I changed the main and fuel pump relays. Car started fine until yesterday afternoon. It was cold but not as cold as recently, but motor spinning like a gem without firing. I had used the car two or three times already that day and it worked perfectly. As wife stood and fumed in Morrison's car park I lfited the seat and in desperation tapped the relays. Sure enough, the b*****d thing started next turn. Went straight round the auto electricians on the way home and bought the other relay. Car started pefectly this morning but having said that it isn't very cold.

Regarding the three relays. Main engine relay is the heavy duty one. Then there are two standrad relays for fuel pump and glow plug. It was the glow plug one that I changed out last and was therfore the likely cause of the Morrison's problem?

Now I can't resist taken suspect relays apart and I carefully prised the cover off this one and found two things: Firstly there is a slight discolouration inside the yellow cover, directly opposite the points - which could only be as a result of sparking? This discolouration was not evident in the fuel pump relay. Secondly there is an almost 4 ohm difference in field winding resistance on this relay compared with the other identical one I removed the day before. (91.6 against 88.2). So what have I done now? - I have stuck it in the fridge of course to see if it still functions after a cold soak!

Watch this space.
 
Hi Ibex,

just read through your thread and I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with this. I feel your pain, I've had a few electrical gremlins with my TD5 in the past. In my case it turned out to be where the loom had worn through inside the convoluted tubing, shorting out the wires for my throttle position sensor.

Your last diagnosis, especially the bit about tapping the relays, sounds about right to me. It certainly seems to tie in with the description on main relay failure in the workshop manual..."Engine will crank but not start"

View attachment 158752

I hope that's you got to the bottom of this!
Cheers
Sandy
 
Bigbananafeet said:
Hi Ibex,

just read through your thread and I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with this. I feel your pain, I've had a few electrical gremlins with my TD5 in the past. In my case it turned out to be where the loom had worn through inside the convoluted tubing, shorting out the wires for my throttle position sensor.

Your last diagnosis, especially the bit about tapping the relays, sounds about right to me. It certainly seems to tie in with the description on main relay failure in the workshop manual..."Engine will crank but not start"

View attachment 158752

I hope that's you got to the bottom of this!
Cheers
Sandy
Click to expand...

where abouts did your loom get damaged? Please.
got problem with mine that could be this, what were your symptoms?

thanks
Andy
 
Hi Landy Andy,

Have a look at my profile, you should be able to dig up the the relevant thread....I'm sure it was one of my first on here.

Basically last year I had a couple of drives where the Landy felt really down on power i.e. struggling to accelerate past 60 whilst going uphill etc. It also appeared to "cough" or misfire when occasionally under hard acceleration. A few days later when on the motorway heading over the Erskine bridge it coughed, then died with the engine dropping to idle only with the engine management lamp lit on the dash. Switching the engine off and back on would occasionally restart it but it would die as soon as I tried to accelerate again.

TP sensor.jpg

After a few expensive and wasted trips to the garage I eventually splashed out on a Hawk eye diagnostic tool with the view that it was an investment. I could see the two voltages on the pedal rising and falling together as I moved the accelerator pedal then one would drop out when I waggled the loom and the engine would immediately die. Mine appears to have have worn through where the loom leaves the ECM from the box under your seat through the large rubber grommet (one nearest the steering wheel). I could waggle it to make the fault appear and then waggle it to make it go away.

It's been running with no further issues (touch wood) with a bit of 7 core trailer cable replacing the relevant wiring between the ECM and the accelerator pedal.

Hope this helps.
Sandy
 
Thanks for that.

i have similar problem that has suddenly appeared. I can start engine but as soon I touch throttle pedal engine goes to tick over warning light on. Bit hit and miss but most miss on starting, but once started fine, until you park for two hours.

Will check loom as it leaves under seat box, is it an easy spot? Or a real strip out the conduit?

andy
 
Just to update regular listeners on the saga of my cold starting TD5. You will recall I replaced the third and final relay under the seat, a yellow one, which controls the glow plugs? Well, despite the cold weather and ample snow we've had in the last week I have to report that the car has started first time, every time since!

Why should this be? I found some discolouration inside the relay box consistent with arcing at the points. Many people have suggested starter brush arcing as a potential source of ecu signal contamination - but a glow plug relay???? Anyhow, for whatever reason, my confidence in the truck on cold start mornings is slowly beginning to return - but it will take a while!

Thanks to all who have offered their ideas and simple messages of support throughout this saga - all much appreciated.
 
Ibex said:
Just to update regular listeners on the saga of my cold starting TD5. You will recall I replaced the third and final relay under the seat, a yellow one, which controls the glow plugs? Well, despite the cold weather and ample snow we've had in the last week I have to report that the car has started first time, every time since!

Why should this be? I found some discolouration inside the relay box consistent with arcing at the points. Many people have suggested starter brush arcing as a potential source of ecu signal contamination - but a glow plug relay???? Anyhow, for whatever reason, my confidence in the truck on cold start mornings is slowly beginning to return - but it will take a while!

Thanks to all who have offered their ideas and simple messages of support throughout this saga - all much appreciated.
Click to expand...

On the subject of those relays being duff, the relay for the heated front windscreen went limp on our td5 disco- screen worked but took ages to melt ice- voltage must have been down. New black chunky relay later and the screen is working corrrectly again! 1st relay we have had fail in 9years of td5 discovery ownership.
 
As we soldier on through the coldest spell of weather we've known in some years - and more roads blocked in this area than ever before in living memory, I would just like to say that my Landrover continues to start perfectly every time. I don't even think about it any more, which is how it should be of course. So after a couple of years and much expenditure - I formally declare this thread closed. I hope.
 
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